How Act leader David Seymour ‘got it wrong’ about NZ First’s Winston Peters - and why Treaty Principles Bill could live on

Deputy Political Editor·NZ Herald·

25 Nov, 2024 04:00 PM8 mins to read

NOW PLAYING • David Seymour on the coalition's first year in power

Adam Pearse and Claire Trevett interview Act leader David Seymour on the coalition's first year in power. Video / Mark Mitchell

It is one year since National, Act and New Zealand First formed the country’s first three-party coalition Government, reaching agreements after weeks of tense discussions following the 2023 election.

The NZ Herald has interviewed the leaders of all three parties about how they think the coalition has fared so far, how they’re getting on with one another and how the dynamic could change ahead of the 2026 election.

Today, we hear from Act leader and soon-to-be Deputy Prime Minister David Seymour. Read Luxon’s interview here.

David Seymour’s evolving relationship with Winston Peters is one of the most intriguing aspects of the coalition Government.

The pair have gone from bitter rivals to seemingly collegial allies as Act and NZ First sit alongside National in Cabinet.

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Seymour, known for his quick-witted jabs, has historically appeared all too willing to poke fun at Peters, having called the NZ First leader a “charismatic crook” and likened the prospect of fighting the now-79-year-old to elder abuse – all of which Peters has responded to in kind.

David Seymour, Christopher Luxon and Winston Peters. Photo / Michael Cunningham

Seymour’s attacks ramped up in the lead-up to the 2023 election, with him describing Peters as the “least trustworthy person in New Zealand politics” less than three weeks out from election day. He had vowed not to sit at a Cabinet table with the NZ First leader.

But it’s said time can heal all wounds and it seems 12 months have done the trick, with Seymour admitting to the Herald he was wrong to claim NZ First would be obstructive in power.

“I thought it’d be difficult with three parties, but in reality, it hasn’t been,” Seymour says.

“In practice, [NZ First] frequently support the Government to reverse policies that they had supported when they were in Government with Labour, and they’re real team players who are prepared to do that, so I got that one wrong.”

To the suggestion politicians don’t often admit their mistakes, Seymour accepts he’s made a few.

“I’m a listener and a learner, but there’s nothing wrong with that, actually we need more of that kind of honesty in politics in my view.”

His contrition and change of approach are part of what Seymour sees as good politics, saying he feels New Zealanders’ tolerance for politicking is low.

“They want to see you fixing the underlying problems that the Government was elected to fix, so we’ve been quite focused on that.

“I think it’s just in everyone’s interest not to play that sort of politics.”

One-on-one interactions between the pair happen largely on the fringes of meetings, Seymour says. Meetings between leaders are held during every parliamentary sitting block, as written in the coalition agreements.

Seymour describes the relationship he has with Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Peters as “courteous and respectful”, noting they all represent different groups of people.

Questions remain as to whether that relationship changes come May 31 next year when Peters must relinquish the Deputy Prime Minister title to Seymour, as per the coalition agreement.

Seymour doesn’t believe it will, and says he views the position as an “honour”.

He does acknowledge a few friction points, particularly concerning the right parties receiving credit for the policies they brought to the coalition, although he couldn’t recall specific instances.

The coalition agreements ensure a party’s policies are “promoted and acknowledged” as their own and as part of their contribution to the Government.

Seymour is quick to clarify the issues are “not exactly coalition-breaking stuff” and are more often borne out of “cock-up rather than conspiracy”.

Sitting in his seventh-floor office in the Beehive, Seymour told the Herald he’s pleased with Act’s debut in Cabinet and what he sees is a “disproportionate” impact on policy, such as cutting public sector expenditure, reintroducing Three Strikes legislation, overhauling the healthy school lunches programme, and employment law reform and a new Ministry of Regulation.

He accepts Act has needed to compromise, primarily on the extent to which so-called “wasteful spending” is cut and the level of extra funding committed in areas such as Defence and Corrections.

“We’d like to go harder at reducing waste and balance the Budget quicker and so on.

“The others don’t want to go as hard as us, but hey, that’s fine.”

Seymour spoke to the Herald about 24 hours after an estimated 55,000 people marched on to Parliament grounds to oppose the Government’s approach to Te Tiriti o Waitangi.

Act party leader David Seymour and the Act caucus stand on the steps at Parliament to watch the Hikoi Mo te Tiriti in Wellington.

Many in their number would name Seymour when asked why they joined the nationwide hīkoi against his Treaty Principles Bill.

The hīkoi followed a defiant haka in the House upon the bill’s first reading, with Opposition parties demanding Luxon abandon his promise to help progress the bill through to the select committee phase.

Luxon has acknowledged the bill was the most difficult part of coalition negotiations and was the main reason they dragged on for more than a month. National and NZ First eventually agreed to support the bill to the select committee stage but no further, much to the dismay of many who wanted the bill scrapped altogether.

Seymour concedes his bill could be among the more contentious issues the coalition has tackled, but claims he’s never been concerned Luxon would vote the bill down at first reading.

“I know that Chris doesn’t like it, but he’s kept his word and I admire him for that.”

And despite the denials from both Luxon and Peters that they will support the bill at further readings, Seymour is somehow still hopeful months of public consultation might be enough to convince them to change their minds.

Helping him keep the faith is a Curia Market Research poll from October that found 45% of respondents approved of Seymour’s newly proposed principles, while 25% disapproved and 29% were unsure. Those support levels were significantly lower than a Curia poll on an earlier version of the proposed bill, when 60% said they would support it if it were put to them in a referendum.

Even if the bill dies its expected death, Seymour suspects the idea of addressing the Treaty’s principles will live on.

“Once you’ve normalised that idea, [it’s] pretty difficult to see that particular genie getting put back in the bottle,” he says.

“That means that Act has made a significant amount of progress on this, the Nats can say, ‘Well, we didn’t support it all the way’, so I think it shows how you can get a win-win in a difficult situation.”

It’s a strategy that’s earned him success in recent years. Seymour’s End of Life Choice Act (which widened access to euthanasia) was passed in 2019, but not before two earlier iterations over the previous three decades failed to make it through the House.

“Throughout my career, I’ve taken positions that people would say are going to alienate voters, and if they’d all been alienated, I wouldn’t have any [supporters]. But what comes through at the end of the day is having the courage and frankly, the skill to put difficult issues on the agenda.”

One decision Seymour accepts did cost Act votes in 2023 was suggesting a confidence-only governing arrangement with National if the two parties had the numbers to govern but Luxon didn’t concede enough ground on policy.

Seymour estimates the move, made just weeks out from the election, lost the party about 5% of support and led to NZ First being needed for a unique three-party coalition, despite National having stated its preference to work with Act alone.

National leader Christopher Luxon, Act leader David Seymour and New Zealand First leader Winston Peters. Photos / NZME

About 12 months on, Seymour claims National’s public position on its preferred arrangement may have differed from its private position, arguing it was always in National’s interest to work with two smaller parties instead of one larger one.

“I can only speculate [on] that [but] they never, despite all of the opportunities to do what the National Party had done several times in the past and ruled out working with New Zealand First, they didn’t take that opportunity.”

Seymour’s outspoken nature has been evident throughout the past year, largely through the Treaty principles debate. He claimed Luxon was being undemocratic for stating the party’s position against the bill before it was written.

It’s one aspect fuelling intrigue ahead of the 2026 election about the coalition Government’s stability as the three parties fight to distinguish themselves.

Seymour says some feedback he receives suggests it might be in all three parties’ interests to be more aligned heading into the campaign.

“Some people say they expect the coalition to campaign as a three-party coalition to re-elect the coalition so certainly one factor will be that people like to see the parties working together and they have expectations of them sticking together.”

Act leader David Seymour in his Beehive office. Photo / Mark Mitchell

Despite being one year into a three-year term, Seymour believes Act has dispelled any trepidation from inside and outside the party about its ability to govern effectively, but he predicts the challenges parties grappled with in the 2023 campaign will evolve come 2026.

“The economy will be less top of mind, I certainly hope that we will have got interest rates and inflation under control, the number of people leaving [New Zealand] will have stopped or reduced or hopefully reversed.

“But there will be other issues, and what they are come 2026 remains to be seen.”

Adam Pearse is a political reporter in the NZ Herald press gallery team, based at Parliament. He has worked for NZME since 2018, covering sport and health for the Northern Advocate in Whangārei before moving to the Herald in Auckland, covering Covid-19 and crime.

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