In Clark’s time, the existence of the deal was so secret that the Government would not confirm its existence. Now, the five countries’ co-operation has moved beyond intelligence-sharing into other areas of policy.
The Five Eyes countries issued a joint statement on China’s crackdown in Hong Kong, which suggested the group was giving itself a broader foreign policy remit. The countries also co-operate on issues related to migration. During the pandemic, the five countries began having joint meeting between their finance ministers, an effort encouraged by Australia.
The growth has some benefits for New Zealand – it’s very difficult for a New Zealand Finance Minister to get time with a US Treasury Secretary, but critics, like Clark, suggest this mission creep deserves a more thorough examination to ensure New Zealand is not sleepwalking into something that looks more like a formal alliance than an intelligence-sharing deal.
“You will recall that in my time as Prime Minister, and all the time leading up to that, it was never acknowledged that it even existed. It was an intelligence-sharing pool. It was never confirmed nor denied that it was even there,” Clark told Q&A.
“And to see it now as the basis for joint statements, finance minister meetings, this has got a bit out of control,” she said.
Clark said the group would be more useful “if it goes back to being a quiet intelligence-sharing pool”.
“Where it’s not helpful is as a co-ordination of foreign policy positioning, and that’s where it’s heading,” she said.
Clark also said it was not just the raw intelligence that was important, but the analysis of that intelligence. In 2003, Clark opted not to join Five Eyes partners the US, UK and Australia in invading Iraq. She was critical of US intelligence which claimed Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.
The intelligence was later found to have been wrong, in part because of a poor analysis of raw intelligence from compromised sources.
“Intelligence generally comes with interpretation. You will recall the interpretations which led to the US and UK with Australian support invading Iraq. We questioned that intelligence and never acted on it. Intelligence has to be treated with scepticism because you can get 2+2 makes 17, as in the case that led to Iraq being invaded,” she said.
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has said New Zealand will spend more money on defence, potentially getting close to the 2% of GDP target observed by Nato countries, although New Zealand is not a Nato member.
Clark was sceptical of this, saying the increased spending was not about defending New Zealand, but about signalling to the likes of the United States that New Zealand was willing to plug into their militaries as part of a multinational interoperable force.
“Let’s be clear, this would not be about the defence of New Zealand. This would be about New Zealand plugging in to bigger allied forces and New Zealand had by and large got itself off that bandwagon.
“We were off the bandwagon of US adventures. I would be a strong advocate of not getting back on that bandwagon,” she said.
Thomas Coughlan is Deputy Political Editor and covers politics from Parliament. He has worked for the Herald since 2021 and has worked in the press gallery since 2018.
