WARNING: This article discusses mental health issues
A podcast between Kiwi musician Anika Moa and former minister Kiri Allan, which RNZ refused to air due to it not meeting its standards of impartiality, has revealed frank opinions on the treatment of Māori women in New Zealand politics and the perceived privilege of Prime Minister Christopher Luxon.
The cancelled episode of It’s Personal with Anika Moa, released to the Herald this week under the Official Information Act, begins with Allan discussing how she is feeling and her life since leaving politics.
Allan resigned as Justice Minister in July 2023 after crashing her ministerial car into a parked vehicle on Evans Bay Parade in Wellington and refusing to accompany police afterwards.
In a wide-ranging interview that covered such topics as isolation, the treatment of Māori women, intergenerational trauma and life after politics, Moa also asked what Allan’s thoughts are on Luxon.
“Chris Luxon’s a guy that the world has always been a place he can be very comfortable in and operate very comfortably in, and it was always probably just an option on the table to become the Prime Minister, because why not,” Allan said.
“Could have been anyone, any white, pale, male stale,” Moa responded.
Allan told Moa she felt Luxon was someone who had operated from a privileged position all of his life.
Although Allan said she loved being part of a team and working with Dame Jacinda Ardern, who shared her values, she loved being out the other side.
“Your life isn’t owned by everybody else now, it’s owned by a 7-year-old kid.”
She told Moa before going into politics, almost every party had asked her to run for them.
“Greens, Act, National, New Zealand First.”
“Even National?” Moa replied. “Were they wanting to top up the colours? Add a bit of brown to white town.”
Next, Moa moves on to the topic of how she felt Māori wāhine were treated in the media.
“They just want to annihilate a certain people. Why, why are they doing this?”
Allan said it was an interesting point to raise, as she didn’t believe many people saw that.
“I think you need to be that to see that.”
She referred to other wāhine Māori in Parliament who had been chewed up by a system that “wasn’t designed for us”.
Moa said it was a toxic environment, and she believes people get cancer and get ill in toxic places.
Allan spoke about a period early last year when she felt like she couldn’t breathe and there was no lifeboat there.
Later, she moves on to the speech she gave at RNZ in which she said there was something wrong within the organisation as it has not been able to keep Māori talent.
Allan said after that, a tone was unlocked where she felt every story that came out about her was negative.
“It took one thing and it started this rolling ball.”
She said Ardern had left by that point and perhaps there was some boredom and the media needed another target.
“When the coverage is too good, that’s isolating, when the coverage is bad it’s isolating. So you’re often isolated.”
Allan said she felt like a failing partner and parent during this period.
Back to how wāhine Māori are treated in the system, Allan said phrases usually used for strong Māori women were, she said, “she’s just so aggressive” and “just tone it down a bit”.
While Allan acknowledged she felt she could have done things better, she believed the way Māori women were heard and received was immeasurably different to other demographics.
The pair then move on to Allan’s Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) and Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) diagnosis.
“I thought the way I was living was normal. I knew it wasn’t normal compared to others, but I thought it was my normal. Well, it is my normal.”
From a young age, Allan said she was self-harming, and she told Moa she has experienced suicidal ideation throughout her life.
Those thoughts, she said, are like a cancer that gnaws away at you.
“But we don’t talk about it like that, we talk about it like it’s this choice, like I choose to feel suicidal at the moment.
“You feel like a freak, you feel like a fraud, you feel like you’re the worst person.”
She had been able to manage it over the years, but at the start of last year she felt she couldn’t manage it any more and it became “bigger and darker and deeper”.
On the driving incident, she said the night was horrible but it was nowhere near even close to one of her worst nights.
While she had consumed some alcohol, Allan told Moa she did not reach the threshold for driving under the influence.
“Got a $250 fine though.”
Allan then referred to Dan Carter, who she said drunk-drove at the peak of his career and she doesn’t remember that being a defining factor of his career or identity.
“Everywhere I step, that’s what people want to talk about.”
Receiving the ADHD diagnosis was confronting for her, she said, because she didn’t believe it was a “real” diagnosis.
“I was pretty broken after everything with the end of my working career in politics, basically. It took 10 weeks to go sit on a couch in my parent’s house and cry ... So it was through that period I was getting all the diagnoses.”
Allan said she learnt the distinctive roles both therapy and medication can play for her.
She had feared medication would cause her creativity to disappear, but “turns out it didn’t”, it just helped her focus more and feel less volatile.
When she’s on medication, doing yoga, therapy and kickboxing, Allan said she is “good as gold” but she doesn’t always do them.
The pair went into Allan’s past growing up in the fundamental Pentecostal church.
Allan said her parents found out she was gay after she didn’t come home one night and one of her lovers outed her.
“I came home to all my things outside – sorry, Mum and Dad, I know you hate that story, but it’s true.”
They’ve worked through it now, though, she said.
Allan described how in high school, she decided to go into a more intense Pentecostal environment and worked closely with someone to manage her “temptations”.
“I tried to be straight, I tried my very, very, very best.”
Now, Allan said she would still say she has spiritual beliefs and she took away benefits from it.
After Ardern resigned, Allan said she received an “insane” amount of texts, “I was like, y’all gotta understand this would literally be like a suicide mission” and to some extent, she said, being a minister was.
“I actually cried when one of my dearest, dearest friends Barbara Edmonds became the spokesperson for finance in Labour now because of what I perceived is going to be the scrutiny that she is going to come under.
“She is exactly the kind of politician New Zealand needs.”
However, Allan does not believe politics will be kind to Edmonds.
RNZ was approached for comment but said it would not go into further detail on its reasons for the editorial policy decision.
The broadcaster reshared its existing statements, including from chief content officer Megan Whelan, who said some topics raised included past news events which still have currency.
“When applied against our editorial policy, RNZ concluded more context would have been needed on impartiality grounds to allow the interview to be published.”
“RNZ makes no apology for upholding its editorial policy. We have enjoyed working with the production company and have happily published dozens of their podcasts. On this rare occasion, we decided not to publish. Our decision and the reasons for this were discussed directly with the production company.”
Its original statement also stated while It’s Personal with Anika Moa is an entertainment, personality-driven, interview show rather than news or current affairs, the topics covered in the interview included recent news events and they needed further context.
“RNZ has a high level of credibility and trust among its audience, we will continue to guard this.”
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Katie Harris is an Auckland-based journalist who covers social issues including sexual assault, workplace misconduct, media, crime and justice. She joined the Herald in 2020.
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