John Campbell ponders whether his interview is being ‘weaponised’; Act says it’s holding media to account and giving viewers the full picture.
Act leader and deputy prime minister David Seymour has turned the camera on TVNZ broadcaster John Campbell - with the politician using his own cameraman to film a recent interview in a tactical move to ensure media don’t “shape the narrative”.
The Act party has posted the full, unedited interview on its YouTube page and highlighted it in a renewed plea last week to raise funds to “help Act cut through the media spin”.
But TVNZ has defended its position, saying it provided exactly what the Act party liked to see. It says it posted its own full and unedited footage of the interview on TVNZ+ before Act’s YouTube post, “allowing viewers to make up their own mind”.
Campbell interviewed Seymour in the Beehive Theatrette on May 20, 11 days before Seymour took up the reins as deputy prime minister.
The interview starts somewhat awkwardly, with Seymour walking in with his cameraman filming close behind.
The Act party leader says a quick ‘howdy’ and ‘how are you’ and then: “I gather you were surprised we accepted the interview. I gather you used the c-word, in reference to how we were supposed to regard you.”
Campbell: “I did not... I don’t think I did that.”
Seymour: “Fair enough. Maybe it was a misunderstanding.”
A few seconds later, Campbell comes back to Seymour’s remarks. “What was that about? What was that little arrival about?”
Seymour: “Well, I was just surprised to hear from my staff that you’d said that word. I mean, I know you’ve been surpassed more recently, but I just found it interesting.”
Campbell, referring to Seymour’s cameraman, says: “So are you playing to Andy? Is that for social media?”
Seymour: “No, no, no, no, I’m not playing to anyone. I just wanted to ask you.”
Campbell said he might have taken a self-deprecating approach when requesting the interview, but he didn’t recall using the c-word.
A few minutes into the interview, Campbell came back to Seymour’s entrance.
Campbell described it as an “odd” introduction - “it was a kind of bristling, slightly alpha way to arrive as opposed to saying ‘hello, how are you’, and all of that”.
“I’m surprised that this is being kind of weaponised.”
Seymour: “No, not at all, John... I was having a bit of banter.”
Seymour suggested Campbell had been “clearly” thrown by the introduction - an assertion the broadcaster rejected.
Eight minutes later, Campbell returns to the topic and the cameraman.
“Let’s talk about Andy over here. Hi Andy, nice to see you. Andy is rolling on this. This is presumably for David versus the media.”
Seymour says Act has a “duty to be open to people”.
“What we found is that for years, people in the media abused the power to edit. I would build relationships with people, I’d talk to people, I’d give the best quotes I could, describing what we stood for, for our voters.
“And then I found at 6 o’clock, the media had abused the power to edit.”
Campbell explains the “tough business” of editing down what might be three or four seven-minute interviews with politicians into a two-minute story.
Seymour: “I don’t deny that you’ve got a format where you’ve got to crunch down. The question is, if you’re good at that, you accurately convey what the person’s trying to say.”
He says one of his skills has been to provide a soundbite “because I have to”.
He told Campbell he was constantly asked during 35 recent street corner meetings about the problems with media.
He said his ‘David versus the Media’ series was about removing the power to edit.
The Deputy Prime Minister says Campbell is “one of our stars” on Act’s YouTube channel - “it’s not a good thing”.
“We’re getting people who just want to see it raw and I’m just saying the power to edit has been abused so many times...we’ve taken that power away.”
In an Act party newsletter on Thursday, Seymour used his filming of the Campbell interview as an example of him bypassing the media.
“He seemed more upset that ACT brought our own camera than interested in our policies. Why?” wrote Seymour.
“Because filming it ourselves meant they couldn’t control the edit. They couldn’t shape the narrative.”
Seymour said that “once upon a time, it was a journalist’s job to report the news”.
“Increasingly, it seems like they’re trying to create it instead.
“The days of reporting the facts and letting Kiwis make up their own minds are long gone.”
He said fewer people were now watching the 6pm TV news or listening to RNZ’s Morning Report.
Kiwis were turning in “ever greater numbers to alternative media like social media, podcasts and YouTube”.
He made a plea for funds.
“Every dollar you chip in means we reach even more Kiwis with unfiltered, uncensored content.
“The impact you can have is powerful.
“First, it helps ACT spread our message on fixing the economy, easing the cost of living, restoring law and order, and standing up for equal rights.
“But just as importantly, it puts pressure on the media.
“By publishing full interviews, ACT is doing what many journalists refuse to do: showing the full story and trusting you to decide for yourself.”
Seymour - who has a long-running policy of not doing interviews with Morning Report - also used the newsletter to have a dig at RNZ.
“As more people tune out of the legacy media and turn to platforms like ours, the message is clear: Report the facts or lose your audience.
“And it’s working. Some journalists have started publishing uncut interviews and playing it straight. Others haven’t – and their viewership is plummeting. That’s the market working.
“But taxpayer-funded media don’t get the message unless we send it to them. That’s why we delivered a significant funding cut to RNZ in this year’s Budget.”
A TVNZ spokeswoman said Campbell’s interviews with Seymour and Winston Peters were made available at the same time - and in full - on TVNZ+, before an edited version at 1 News at Six.
These had been available for weeks, and in advance of the Act party posting its own footage, TVNZ said.
“John Campbell interviewed both Winston Peters and David Seymour on the deputy prime minister transition,” said a spokeswoman.
“Both interviews were made available in full on TVNZ+ with excerpts on 1News.
“The Act party say they are concerned about shaping of narratives, but we’ve provided exactly what they’d like to see - the full, unedited story, allowing viewers to make up their own mind.”
The TVNZ spokeswoman said 1News at Six had not seen any notable decline in audience.
“We’re proud of our 1News at Six numbers. We reach nearly 1 million viewers every night. Our aim is to serve all New Zealanders irrespective of the party they vote for.”
Seymour said TVNZ was being “delusional” if it believed its 6pm news numbers were not falling.
He suspected they were using some sort of cumulative number.
If it were true that they’d actually grown the audience, “they’ve got even more explaining to do while their revenue and their staff numbers have been falling.”
He said his wider point stood, regardless of TVNZ’s protestations.
“It’s certainly true that they put the raw footage of the Campbell interview up prior to us releasing footage. They knew that we were going to release the footage. So they didn’t need to wait for us to put it up to change their behaviour.”
He said it was unusual to see raw footage of an interview posted in full. “I certainly can’t think of any other examples.”
Asked if he planned to film all of his media interviews, Seymour said: “We don’t have a policy - we just do it when we think it’s worthwhile.
“I am frequently interviewed without anyone filming me, but we just find it sometimes worthwhile.
“I think, given the way that John behaved when he realised that he no longer had a monopoly on editing, I think tells you everything you need to know.
“Certainly, the way people are reacting to the YouTube version that was put up is pretty telling.”
As of Sunday morning, the YouTube video had around 80,000 views and almost 2000 comments.
In an interview on the Media Insider podcast last week, TVNZ chief executive Jodi O’Donnell touched on the importance of TVNZ+ as the broadcaster shored up its trust levels.
TVNZ was last week named fourth, behind Toyota, Pak’nSave and Air New Zealand, in the Kantar Corporate Reputation Index - a move up the ladder from a year ago.
O’Donnell referred specifically to TVNZ+ and its news menu.
Halting a decline in media trust was one aspect of TVNZ’s focus, the next was how to rebuild it, O’Donnell said.
“I go back to that insight around giving viewers more choice, giving them options for what they want to watch on their terms, I think will be a critical part of trust in media.”
She also spoke to Media Insider about the evolution of the 6pm bulletin, “curated for what we believe are the right stories of the day”.
“But for individuals to be able to go online and self-serve effectively - if they want to learn more about what’s happening in the international markets or business or sport - then they can actually do that on their own terms [with TVNZ+].
“I think that’s something really interesting for us all to think about when we’re thinking about really halting the decline in trust and thinking about how we grow it as an industry.”
Editor-at-Large Shayne Currie is one of New Zealand’s most experienced senior journalists and media leaders. He has held executive and senior editorial roles at NZME including Managing Editor, NZ Herald Editor and Herald on Sunday Editor and has a small shareholding in NZME.
Watch Media Insider - The Podcast on YouTube, or listen to it on iHeartRadio, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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