‘Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right’: Nicola Willis hits back as debate reaches deadlock

Finance Minister Nicola Willis wants a debate attended by all media. Photo / Mark Mitchell

Finance Minister Nicola Willis is unfazed by a pincer movement against her fiscal reputation, as the Public Service Association moved to attack a debate scheduled between Willis and former Finance Minister Ruth Richardson as a “false flag”.

Willis challenged Richardson to a debate earlier this week as news emerged the Taxpayers’ Union, a small-government campaign group chaired by Richardson, was launching a campaign targeting Willis for not reducing spending and debt fast enough.

Public Service Association (PSA) national secretary Fleur Fitzsimons called the debate a “false flag operation” designed to make Willis look more moderate than she actually is.

Asked what she thought of that allegation, Willis responded with a play on the famous Stealers Wheel song: “Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, I’m stuck in the middle, and that’s where New Zealand is too”.

The Taxpayers Union launched its anti-Willis campaign on Thursday: boxes of fudge, punningly accusing Willis of fudging promises on debt and spending.

Neither Willis nor Richardson can agree on a forum for the debate. In a statement, Richardson said she favoured a debate hosted by Newstalk ZB (a station owned by NZME, which also owns the Herald).

“Enough with the dilly-dallying. You laid down the gauntlet with ‘anytime, any place’ and we have come back with the offer. Take it or leave it,” Richardson said.

Willis favours a debate in Parliament’s Legislative Council Chamber, the old Upper House, which all media could livestream and report on. The debate would be moderated by Toby Manhire, editor-at-large at The Spinoff.

Manhire recently released Juggernaut 2, a podcast detailing the history of the Fourth National Government, in which Richardson served as Minister of Finance. Richardson participated in that podcast.

“We’ve had huge interest from virtually all mainstream media platforms. I want everyone to get a fair shot, so our proposal is he hold it here next week so members of the press gallery can attend,” Willis said.

She said she wanted the debate to be held after the Half-Year Economic and Fiscal Update (Hyefu), the latest Treasury forecasts, which will be released on Tuesday.

“Hopefully we can get on and make the debate happen,” Willis said.

Richardson said she will not agree to this option.

“We know you’re trying to negotiate with a taxpayer-funded, left-wing website, when the offer on the table is the largest broadcast audience in New Zealand, Newstalk ZB Breakfast,” she said.

The Spinoff is not taxpayer-funded, but has received funding from taxpayer-funded journalism programmes. NZME, the owner of Newstalk ZB, also received money from those programmes.

“Spending as a proportion of GDP [gross domestic product] has been lower under our Government than under the last,” Willis said.

Core Crown expenses were 31.8% of GDP in the year to June 2023. However, Labour’s last Budget was for the year ended June 2024, when the same figure was 33%.

This falls to 32.7% for expenses in the year to June 2025, Willis’ first Budget, and is forecast to rise slightly in the coming year to 32.9% before falling to 32.1% in 2027, which would be the last Budget of this Parliament.