Labour leader and former Covid-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins says appearing at the second set of public hearings for the Covid-19 Royal Commission would be an unprecedented move that risks subjecting him and other witnesses to a torrent of abuse.
National minister Judith Collins has slammed the decision by former Prime Minister Dame Jacinda Ardern not to front as “gutless and hypocritical”.
In an interview this morning, Newstalk ZB’s Mike Hosking asked Hipkins about his and Ardern’s decision not to attend the hearings. Hipkins revealed global law firm Dentons had advised the former Labour leadership there were two issues with appearing.
“One was that no ministers had previously done this, and that it would create a precedent if we did so,” Hipkins said.
“The second thing they raised was concerns about the fact that people who had already appeared publicly before the Royal Commission had been the subject of significant abuse.
“And that is a concern that the... Royal Commission themselves, have acknowledged in the decision that they took yesterday.”
Hipkins said it’s never been past practice for ministers to stand before public hearings, citing the Christchurch earthquake and 2019 mosque shootings as examples.
“The practice the current Royal Commission are following is the practice every Royal Commission in New Zealand’s history has followed.”
While Hipkins said he’s already “answered every question” the Royal Commission had, Hosking questioned whether this meant he and the other key witnesses had heeded Dentons’ “spin”.
“I just set out what their advice to me was,” replied Hipkins.
Hosking pressed Hipkins for clarity over whether Dentons’ advice was that appearing at the hearings publicly “might not go well” for him, but he said he was not in a position to comment on the matter.
“There are issues relating to the safety of individuals around the Covid-19 response and public commentary on it that the courts have indicated I cannot comment on or anyone, including you, cannot comment on.”
With Hipkins refusing to share more, Hosking asked whether the public deserves to hear Ardern speak, which Hipkins rebutted as a question for Ardern, not him.
“She doesn’t talk to New Zealand media anymore apart from when she’s promoting a book,” Hosking replied.
Speaking to Ryan Bridge this morning on Herald NOW, National minister Judith Collins was scathing about Ardern refusing to front.
“I think it’d be a little bit rude to say entirely gutless and hypocritical, but maybe not. I mean, honestly ... 1pm podium of truth. Well, where the hell are they now?
“I just imagine what would be being said if the Prime Minister Christopher Luxon tried to pull that stunt.
“And all this nonsense about ‘people might be mean to us on social media’. Oh, well, you know, have a look at what people do to the rest of us.”
The second tranche of hearings was called off after key witnesses, including Ardern, refused to appear.
Witnesses, including Hipkins and former ministers Grant Robertson and Ayesha Verrall, are still co-operating with the inquiry.
In June last year, a “phase two” of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Covid-19 Lessons was established by the National-led coalition Government.
It was scheduled to take place after the original inquiry set up under the previous Labour Government, which ministers have already appeared before in private.
Chairman Grant Illingworth has the power to summon people to appear before the inquiry, but said he would not use it on Ardern and the other ministers as there weren’t any grounds for it.
“On balance, we are of the view that a summons is undesirable, given that the former ministers continue to co-operate with the evidence-gathering of the inquiry.
“It is our opinion that the use of summonses to achieve their participation at a public hearing would be legalistic and adversarial, which our terms of reference prohibit,” Illingworth said.
He said he still believed public hearings would enhance public confidence in the inquiry’s processes by enabling the public to see former ministers, who have critical insights into the pandemic response, questioned in public.
Hipkins, appearing on Herald NOW last month, said he had issues with the way the second phase of the Royal Commission had been set up, particularly the decision to exclude from consideration the years that NZ First was governing with Labour.
“The fact that the [Royal Commission] terms of reference specifically exclude decisions made when NZ First were part of the [Labour-led coalition] Government … I think the terms of reference have been deliberately constructed to achieve a particular outcome, particularly around providing a platform for those who have conspiracy theorist views.
“That seems to have been specifically written into the terms of reference that they get maximum airtime.”
Objections of Ardern and the other ministers, published in a minute of the inquiry, included the convention that ministers and former ministers are interviewed by inquiries in private, and departing from that convention would undermine confidence.
They were also concerned that the livestreaming and publication of recordings of the hearing creates a risk of those recordings being “tampered with, manipulated or otherwise misused”, a risk the inquiry “ought to have foreseen and planned for”.
Other witnesses raised concerns that providing evidence at public hearings might bring risks of abuse being directed at them and their families.
Hipkins is standing firm on the witnesses’ decision.
“We have shown up to the inquiry, I have shown up to the inquiry. I have been interviewed by them twice,” he told reporters yesterday.
“I have provided written evidence to the inquiry, I answered every question they had and I attended the interview they scheduled for me.
“They asked for two hours, but they ran out of questions after an hour.”
Hipkins said he did not co-ordinate his approach with Ardern and would not speak on behalf of her.
“She is still a very close friend of mine. We have people representing us in common, but any suggestion we colluded with this is wrong.”
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