Act leader David Seymour clashes with iwi leader during Treaty Principles Bill public debate

Act leader David Seymour says New Zealand has become a divided country and has not been this divided since the 1981 Springboks tour.

He has described the Treaty of Waitangi as a “beautiful document” but said a constant focus on division has been damaging for the country.

Seymour is publicly debating his contentious Treaty Principles Bill for the first time tonight.

He is going head-to-head with Helmut Modlik, tumu whakarae (chief executive) of Te Rūnanga o Toa Rangatira, who said for democracy to work, there needed to be truth, justice and fairness. He said these values were what were at stake at the moment.

“Stop saying, ‘Just leave it in the past’,” Modlik said. Māori “did not cede their rangatiratanga”.

“Two cents in the dollar is not a settlement, it’s a down payment.”

The pair have sparred tonight over the history of the Treaty and whether Māori ceded sovereignty in 1840.

The debate is being broadcast on Martyn Bradbury’s Podcast The Working Group and moderated by Bradbury and Damien Grant from 8pm, and can be watched live at the top of this story.

STORY CONTINUES AFTER LIVE BLOG.

Load more

STORY CONTINUES.

Seymour said he was looking forward to a constructive debate with Modlik on the Treaty Principles Bill, which will include discussing Te Tiriti o Waitangi and its role in the 21st century.

Modlik said he reached out to Seymour “immediately” after the politician said he wanted a national conversation about Te Tiriti.

“Unsurprisingly, there was little interest in a debate at first from David but he soon came around. I was invited to appear on an earlier show, I turned up. David’s office later said they never agreed to it,” Modlik said.

A draft of Seymour’s bill will be ready for public release and discussion next month. National and NZ First have said they will support the bill to a first reading only.

Modlik said Seymour is defending the indefensible.

“When I reflect on the bill I can’t help but ask; if political parties aren’t supporting it other than Act, why continue wasting taxpayers’ money, and demand yet another expensive multimillion-dollar referendum? What is the true purpose of the public actions taken by Act?

“Hopefully we’ll find out on Tuesday, 8 October at 8pm.”

Seymour told the Herald he was happy to debate anyone, anytime, anywhere.

“I agree with Helmut that we need a national conversation about what our founding document means to us today,” he said.

“The point of the Treaty Principles Bill is to protect all New Zealanders’ say on the future of our country. I hope that this will be the first of many conversations on what Kiwis want for their futures. Helmut has the same right as anyone else to take part in this conversation and I look forward to hearing what he has to say.”

Julia Gabel is a Wellington-based political reporter. She joined the Herald in 2020 and has most recently focused on data journalism.