Act leader David Seymour invited to Oxford Union debate about ‘stolen land’ and illegal immigration

Act leader David Seymour will be taking part in the renowned Oxford Union debate, opposing the moot that states “no one can be illegal on stolen land”.

Seymour will leave New Zealand on June 3 before participating in the debate on June 5, just days after he becomes Deputy Prime Minister.

It follows an intense debate domestically about Māori rights and the place of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, prompted by Seymour’s Treaty Principles Bill, which was voted down last month.

The Oxford Union debate will be known by many Kiwis as the setting in which former Prime Minister David Lange argued in 1985 that nuclear weapons were morally indefensible.

He issued the iconic quote: “If you hold your breath just for a moment, I could smell the uranium on it as you lean towards me.”

More recently, Labour MP Willie Jackson became the first Māori to be invited to the debate when he successfully argued last year against the moot that British museums are not very British.

Former Prime Minister David Lange during the Oxford Union debate in 1985.

Speaking to the Herald, Seymour said he initially thought his invitation a couple of months ago may have been a “prank”.

“Then I realised that they also invited Willie Jackson, so it actually could be serious,” Seymour joked.

The moot – This House Believes No One Can Be Illegal on Stolen Land – would be opposed by Seymour alongside R.J. Hauman, a United States immigration enforcement lobbyist who wrote in March that “illegal immigrants are not Americans”, and Art Arthur, a fellow of the US-based Centre for Immigration Studies.

Arguing in favour would be Aviva Chomsky, a US history professor and daughter of Noam Chomsky; Nivine Sandouka, a Palestinian human rights activist and member of the Alliance for Middle East Peace; and Australian senator Mehreen Faruqi.

Each speaker would have about 10 minutes for their speech, alternating between proposition and opposition, with a vote at the end of the debate to conclude.

“The question is how and when a state can be legitimate and what obligations people alive today have to the past if they claim the right to exclude others from continuing to migrate here,” Seymour said.

He believed the debate was relevant to New Zealand, given its Treaty foundation, but acknowledged immigration was a hot topic in the Northern Hemisphere.

“The [United Kingdom’s] Reform Party’s extraordinary surge seems to be almost entirely about border security, and [US President] Donald Trump, to a large extent, has campaigned on literally building walls at times so in those countries, they’re very focused on it.

“I‘ll be making the point that every state in the world has been founded in difficult times. I would argue New Zealand being founded by voluntary agreement has probably had one of the more civilised births of any country.”

David Seymour's Treaty Principles Bill, which was voted this year, caused significant protest at this year's Waitangi celebrations. Photo / Dean Purcell

Seymour said he was participating as a private citizen, confirming he wouldn’t use taxpayer funding for the trip, but acknowledged he would be seen and introduced as an MP, a party leader and likely the Deputy Prime Minister, which he becomes from June 1.

It would likely be Seymour’s first significant engagement as Deputy Prime Minister.

“Well, it’s just another reason not to screw it up,” Seymour said.

He dismissed any potential concerns about participating in the debate in the wake of domestic tensions relating to Treaty rights, informed by bills his party promoted.

“I think we should be a lot more relaxed about people getting out and testing out ideas, trying them on for size and deciding which ones to keep and which ones to discard.”

With the debate set for June 5, it meant Seymour would be absent from the House’s debate on the recommended sanction for three Te Pāti Māori MPs that was delayed due to last week’s Budget.

Seymour was confident the trip was worth being away from Parliament, claiming he hadn’t missed a full sitting week in 11 years.

As for his performance in the debate, Seymour hoped to emulate Lange.

“I think he put an important issue plainly and effectively, which is all any debater should aim to do.”

Adam Pearse is the Deputy Political Editor and part of the NZ Herald’s Press Gallery team based at Parliament in Wellington. He has worked for NZME since 2018, reporting for the Northern Advocate in Whangārei and the Herald in Auckland.