Collins said "actually" 56 times that we could count, though counting was hard when there were three people speaking at once. Simon Wilson's favourite: "I'll tell you what/do you know what", Collins said 25 times. That's a lot of speaking time going nowhere.
An audience of 100 "mostly undecided" voters responded with clapping and laughter 16 times for the Prime Minister and nine for the Leader of the Opposition, but Collins was more responsive to audience interaction, pushing longer and harder when she received applause.
Collins had the best laugh lines of the night – on Winston Peters and miracles, and wanting to be on the cover of Vogue.
This debate, Ardern and Collins faced more questions, delivered in a different style, pace and tone, broadly covering six general policy areas, some quick-fire responses and the final summary.
These two leaders agreed a lot: on Christchurch in a Christmas Eve Covid scenario, and on the morally wrong extortion by companies reporting profits who claimed the wage subsidy.
Irrespective of the morality though, the new policy announcement from Judith Collins that she might change the law to claw it back can be dismissed. National doesn't do retrospective legislation.
The leaders agreed on stabilising housing prices, "growing" our way out of debt, a shared GDP tunnel vision from the last century.
Neither wanted to be Aotearoa instead of New Zealand or to have a new flag, and both supported four-year terms for Parliament and an investigation of Pharmac.
There were clear differences: on the Covid response and opening to Australia and the Pacific; on tax breaks or increases; on the right to silence on child abuse cases; on teaching te reo in New Zealand schools; on the national response to climate change; on reform of the RMA and on a resolution regarding Ihumātao.
This debate had quite a different dynamic from the first. It did deliver some substance, but Collins maintained her camera time and attention advantage.
There is one head-to-head debate to go. The final October 15 leaders' debate will air on TVNZ 1 again at 7pm and will be moderated by Jessica Mutch McKay.
• Marilyn Waring is a Professor of Public Policy, and Dr Ali Rasheed is a graduate of the Auckland University of Technology.
