Police Minister Mark Mitchell spoke to RNZ in what he says is his final interview on the Jevon McSkimming saga. Photo / RNZ / Samuel Rillstone
By Sam Sherwood of RNZ
A month after a bombshell report was released by the police watchdog that found serious misconduct at the highest levels of police, Minister of Police Mark Mitchell sat down with National Crime Correspondent Sam Sherwood in what he says is his final interview on the matter.
Who knew what about former Deputy Police Commissioner Jevon McSkimming and when they found out has become one of the biggest questions to emerge from the Independent Police Conduct Authority’s scathing report.
Nearly a week ago, former Police Commissioner Andrew Coster claimed he had briefed both former Police Minister Chris Hipkins and current Police Minister Mark Mitchell about allegations against McSkimming in relation to an affair he had, before they say they were made aware.
Both men have strenuously denied the claims.
In an extensive sit-down interview with RNZ, which he says will be his last on the matter, Mitchell talks about the moment he says he found out about Ms Z, his relationship with Coster and why he believes 36 emails about the allegations were diverted from his office.
Just over two years ago Mitchell, who previously worked in the police as a member of the Dog Section and Armed Offenders Squad, became Police Minister.
Looking back, Mitchell says although the two men’s philosophies were not aligned, which he concedes was “pretty obvious to most people”, he respected Coster.
“I thought he was a man of integrity and he was smart.”
Mitchell had worked with him under the previous National Government when Mitchell was Associate Minister of Justice and Coster was deputy chief executive at the Ministry of Justice.
“There was a level of respect there, without a doubt.
“But, on becoming minister it started to become evident to me, fairly early on in that first year that that non-alignment was an issue and that I was also facing some performance issues within the police executive itself.”
Mitchell says the performance issues weren’t around integrity, rather “capability and delivery”.
“We were a new government. We’d had a massive spike in violent crime, retail crime, a big issue with our gangs. We were very clear as an incoming coalition government the policy direction we wanted to take, and I needed a police executive that had deep capability and the ability to deliver, and I didn’t feel like they were anywhere near operating where they should have been.”
In September last year Coster resigned from the role he’d held since 2020.
Asked how he would describe Coster’s tenure in police, Mitchell says he does not want to get personal.
“I think that when you reflect back and you look at it, there was probably some good things that he did. I think that you acknowledge that he had a big chunk of public service before he became Commissioner. You could debate whether or not he was ready to take on that role. But … it’s important to acknowledge that public service and that he’s done some good things through that public service, but for whatever reason, they lost their way.
“And for me, as incoming minister, we weren’t aligned. And that wasn’t personal, it’s just that my view around public safety and how to achieve that and his were different. He was more aligned with the previous Government in my view.”
The woman referred to in the IPCA’s report as Ms Z was charged in May last year with causing harm by posting digital communication in relation to more than 300 emails she allegedly sent to McSkimming’s work email address between December 2023 and April 2024.
It wasn’t until about a month after she was charged that former Deputy Commissioner Tania Kura decided police should explore whether any of the allegations in the emails were legitimate.
On October 9 the Public Service Commission (PSC) contacted the IPCA and asked if there were any complaints relating to the applicants for the commissioner role.
The following day the IPCA chair emailed Coster asking that police refer any complaints regarding McSkimming to them.
It was then that Ms Z’s complaint was referred to them.
The IPCA informed police on October 14 they had categorised the matter as Category A, an independent investigation.
That same day Mitchell says he was told by the Acting Public Service Commissioner at the time, Heather Baggott, that as part of their inquiries with the IPCA they had “come back and said they had some information in relation to McSkimming”.
“They were assessing that and they would come back to the PSC when it was appropriate and update them on that information. That was the information that the PSC relayed to me.”
A spokesperson for the IPCA has said there was nothing in the IPCA Act or in principle to prevent a minister making inquiries about whether they have a particular complaint.
“The extent to which we would respond to that question, if at all, would depend on the circumstances of the particular case and protection of any confidentiality.”
Asked what the IPCA would have done in this situation, had Mitchell asked, the spokesperson said the IPCA had nothing further to add.
Mitchell says there was nothing more he could have done at that stage.
“I think as a minister, if I had tried to inject myself into an independent authority and the work that they were doing, then you’d be sitting here and I’d be highly criticised for trying to interfere in a process that I shouldn’t be involved in.
“Quite simply, it was the IPCA’s role to assess that information and then come back and brief the PSC.”
RNZ understands Mitchell and the Prime Minister received advice from the PSC on October 22 regarding the appointment of an Interim Police Commissioner, with the position set to be vacant from November 11 because of Andrew Coster’s resignation.
It’s understood the recommendation did not include any mention of any complaints about McSkimming.
Baggott advised that Kura met the fit and proper person requirement and recommended she be appointed to the role.
The advice did say that probity, reference and IPCA checks for the interim commissioner process were undertaken on Kura and McSkimming from March 2023 onwards.
The advice said that in the context of that process and on balance, the Acting Public Service Commissioner recommended Kura.
The first time Mitchell says he ever heard about Ms Z was on November 6, when he received a call from Coster, who had been instructed to do so by the PSC.
“Apparently, he was reluctant to do that,” Mitchell says.
“He presented to me the narrative that had been used, and I challenged that, and I made it pretty clear that I was not happy about what had been put forward.”
The following day Mitchell had a meeting with the PSC and the Solicitor-General so he could bring forward his concerns.
Pressed on what was said during the meeting, Mitchell says most of what was discussed was legally privileged.
“But fundamentally, I brought forward my concerns around the way she’d been treated inside the system.”
He says Coster should have told him earlier.
“[He] should have informed me about this at the earliest opportunity, and he didn’t do that.”
RNZ understands that on November 11, Baggott, by now the Deputy Public Service Commissioner, sent a recommendation that Chambers be appointed Commissioner.
The panel for the interview process for Commissioner, which included Baggott, considered Chambers as the strongest candidate highlighting his frontline operational experience and credibility.
IPCA, reference and probity checks raised no red flags about his integrity or capability.
In relation to McSkimming, the Public Service Commission said further time would be required to provide advice on the fit and proper criteria.
It also mentioned there were two investigations underway in relation to McSkimming. The criminal investigation and the IPCA’s investigation.
The nature of the investigations meant that the PSC was unable to provide advice on whether he was a fit and proper person.
It’s understood the PSC said Mitchell had a strong preference to appoint the Commissioner by November and had decided not to delay Baggott’s recommendation of the preferred candidate until the investigations were completed.
Baggott had, with Mitchell’s approval, spoken to McSkimming and told him he was not the preferred candidate and that the investigations into him did not inform the decision as Baggott was the only member of the panel who knew about the allegations under investigation.
Baggott invited McSkimming to comment, and he did not raise any issues.
Baggott said that presently it was not tenable for McSkimming to be considered for the role.
If Mitchell wished to consider McSkimming he would need to wait for the outcome of the investigations, as well as the reference and probity checks.
The PSC believed the investigations would be completed by the end of the year.
Chambers was announced as Commissioner on November 20. The following month McSkimming was stood down from his role.
Last month the IPCA released its report into police’s handling of allegations raised by Ms Z.
Before the report was released publicly, several people including Mitchell, Chambers and other ministers received a copy.
“It was worse than what I thought as I got into it,” Mitchell recalls.
“I just knew it was going to be really bad, and I knew that we were going to have to have a very strong response to it and have to work hard around trying to maintain public confidence.
“The flip side of it is that I got a lump on my throat when I read about the actions of some of these officers … that held fast to their values and were willing to stand up in a very difficult situation to do the right thing which actually went as far as meaning that the IPCA became engaged and became aware of it. If that hadn’t happened, then we may never have known about what was going on.”
Asked what stood out for him about the report, Mitchell says it was the actions of the then executive.
“There was no character sitting there that was strong enough to provide a check and balance and just how quickly they had gone immediately to accepting the narrative that was put forward by Jevon when anyone looking at it – there were massive red flags in terms of what was happening.”
After the report was publicly released Coster went on leave and then last week RNZ revealed he had resigned.
Coster released a statement following his resignation saying it was “a result of my acceptance of full responsibility for the shortcomings” identified in the IPCA’s report.
He did not respond to multiple requests for an interview from RNZ.
However, in an interview with TVNZ’s Q+A he said he told Hipkins that McSkimming told him he had an affair with a “much younger woman” and that the relationship “soured badly” and she was now emailing “all sorts of people with allegations about him”.
He said the briefing was in 2022 in the back of a car while the two men were travelling in the South Island.
He said he was unable to prove the conversation occurred.
“It’s simply my account.”
Coster also said he had discussed the allegations about McSkimming and his affair with Mitchell “informally through 2024”.
“There is no way I was only just telling him about this in my last couple of weeks in the job,” he said.
He did not have the exact date, but said it was an “informal conversation” in the same terms as his conversation with Hipkins.
Asked why Hipkins and Mitchell would deny that, he said: “you would have to ask them”.
“All I can say is no one wants to be close to this.”
Further pressed on why he should be trusted, Coster said: “I acted honestly, I acted in good faith, my judgments were wrong and I accept that.”
Speaking to RNZ inside his office this week, Mitchell says there was never any formal or informal discussions with Coster about Ms Z.
“Had he brought forward to me at any time through 2024 that there was a complaint against a statutory Deputy Commissioner that involved an extramarital affair, an age difference, a power imbalance, a job created and then for whatever reason a dismissal that had then transitioned into, as it was presented to me a campaign of harassment and stalking … had he brought that forward to me, then I would have initiated exactly what I did on November 7.”
Questioned whether it was possible he simply couldn’t recall the conversation, Mitchell says he would not forget about such a discussion.
“To put some context around it, it was an executive that he knew that … I was not happy with their performance,” he says.
“If you read the IPCA report you can see this narrative emerging that [Coster] was heavily invested in the success of Jevon McSkimming becoming his successor, to protect what he saw as his legacy. And I think at the end of the day, that went to the heart of all the issues that we’ve seen sort of transpire …”
If there were no informal discussions, then why would Coster lie?
Mitchell says he’s been asked this question and adds that it’s not on him to prove there weren’t such conversations.
“It’s incumbent on him to prove that there was, and I don’t think he has any evidence to prove that that conversation happened. There were no file notes, there were no records,” he says.
Asked whether he would resign as Police Minister if Coster was able to prove the conversations did take place, Mitchell replied that his integrity was important to him.
“So Andrew Coster is not going to have any proof that there was a conversation that happened in relation to Ms Z before November 6, because had he had that conversation with me, I would have taken some action on it.”
Pressed further of whether he would resign, Mitchell said “it’s not a hypothetical that’s going to happen”.
“He’s made accusations against myself, against Heather Baggott, against Chris Hipkins. There doesn’t seem to be any evidence at all that exists around any of those conversations,” he says.
“If you’re going to bring accusations like that forward, then you should come forward with some evidence on that. We shouldn’t live in a country where you can just make allegations and point the finger and smear people without being able to come forward with some evidence to prove it. And he’s done it three times, and all three times he hasn’t been able to provide any evidence of it.”
The day after the IPCA’s report, Mitchell revealed 36 emails containing allegations about McSkimming were sent to his office, but he never saw them.
A protocol had been put in place for police staff in Mitchell’s ministerial office to forward the emails directly to then-Commissioner Andrew Coster’s office, and not share them with Mitchell or his political staff, he said.
Mitchell told RNZ this week that he became aware of the direction after he received the IPCA report.
“I felt pretty angry … having been the minister and having the Commissioner or the Commissioner’s office take actions to intentionally make sure that I didn’t get visibility on something that I felt was actually critically important.
“I think that’s about as far as you can go in terms of a shocking, atrocious lack of integrity.”
He says he does not blame any of the staff.
“I’ve been up to PNHQ [Police National Headquarters], I’ve met with the government services team up there, I’ve been very clear with them … that was a protocol put in place through the Commissioner’s office. They had no reason to challenge it, or question it.”
Coster told TVNZ’s Q+A the first he heard of the allegation was after the IPCA report was released.
“I had absolutely no knowledge of that whatsoever. I can’t validate whether that was, in fact, a protocol that was in place, but what I can say is there’s no way in the world that agency employed staff in a minister’s office are able to prevent the minister or the minister’s staff from seeing email coming in on the minister’s email address.”
When asked his views on Coster now, Mitchell says the former Commissioner had given “outstanding public service to our country”.
“But I also feel very strongly that he needs to actually personally show that he understands the seriousness of it, that it’s a genuine apology without caveats, and then I think he’s got the ability if people allow, just leave him alone, he’s a smart guy – he can go away and rebuild and find something he’s passionate about and get on with it.”
Calls have been made for a further inquiry following the IPCA report. Mitchell says that’s not a decision for him, however Prime Minister Christopher Luxon recently said a further inquiry – such as a Royal Commission – was not needed.
There have been several other controversies for police this year, including a retail crime threshold directive that was then canned by the Commissioner, 130 police officers being investigated for allegedly falsifying breath tests, and 17 staff investigated in relation to “misuse and inappropriate content”.
Mitchell says he’s concerned about the dent such revelations have had on the trust and confidence in police.
“You get a slow degradation inside the system when you start becoming loose around standards. A big part of certainly when I became minister was starting to get a focus back on standards again,” he said.
He says Chambers had reinforced that with the reinstatement of audits and focusing on integrity and standards.
“I’m certainly not making excuses nor forgiving the behaviour of any of those that have been picked up in the audits, but what I would say is that they’re being picked up.”
Looking ahead to next year, Mitchell says one focus will be sticking to the priorities he set out in his original letter of expectation.
“Back to basics, policing highly visibly, investment and support going into the frontline and leadership being visible and exhibiting the values, integrity and standards of our New Zealand police.”
Mitchell speaks highly of Chambers, who he says is “highly visible”, and is excited about getting a new executive team in place.
“In relation to this whole saga, and the IPCA report and the previous executive – we need to put a line under that, and we just need to get on with it.”
– RNZ