“I’ve always said that with Sally, you don’t have to like her,” Sarah Goldberg said of her character in Barry, for which she earned an Emmy nod. “You just have to know her.” Photo / Lanna Apisukh, The New York Times
Warning: This article contains spoilers for the finale
“It was definitely a comedy when we started,” the actress said. But in the end, it “was a morality tale” about the choices that make us who we are.
“I signed up for a comedy,” actress Sarah Goldberg said of her role in Barry. “I never thought I’d have to cry so much in a comedy.”
This was on a recent morning at Joe Allen, a theatre district mainstay. Goldberg, dry-eyed and graceful in a relaxed take on a power suit, was stirring a Shirley Temple, angling for the cherry. The wall behind her was decorated with the posters of famous Broadway flops: Rockabye Hamlet, Home Sweet Homer, Carrie. Yet Goldberg, who spent the first decade of her career in theatre, is currently enjoying a generous pour of success.
Sisters, the comedy she created with Sarah Stanley, debuted earlier this month. (In solidarity with the Writers Guild strike, she would not discuss it.) She is now shooting a substantial role for Season 3 of the series Industry. And the cherry at the bottom is Barry, the HBO not-quite-a-comedy that earned Goldberg an Emmy nomination in 2019 and aired its violent, mordant, wrenching final episode Sunday night. (Titanic spoilers follow.)
The log line of Barry, which began in 2018, sounds like the set-up to a joke that increasingly held its punchlines: A hit man (Bill Hader’s Barry) walks into an acting class. Goldberg was cast as Sally, a fellow student and Barry’s love interest.
With the blessing of the series creators, Hader and Alec Berg, Goldberg, 37, conceived Sally as a social experiment: Could she take the girl-next-door and restyle her as a gaping maw of narcissism and need? Yes, she could. In her hands, Sally became a sunlit catastrophe of a person. And in a pattern familiar to other prestige series (Breaking Bad, The Sopranos), online commenters seemed to judge Sally more harshly than her anti-hero partner. Did that ever feel bad?
“Only in the way that every single day as a woman can feel bad,” she said.
Over its four seasons, the dark Hollywood satire of Barry gave way to something even darker: a catalogue of hungry, damaged people playing pretend. But while the finale left Barry dead and the acting guru Gene Cousineau (Henry Winkler) jailed for life, Sally broke good. Having finally left Barry in an effort to protect their son, the one-time actress and showrunner is shown years later, directing high school theatre somewhere snowy.
“It is as close to a happy ending for Sally as possible,” Goldberg said.
Over mocktails, Goldberg discussed the finale, the series’ tonal leaps and how Sally survived. These are edited excerpts from the conversation.
Q: So what was Barry about?
A: Barry was a morality tale. “Am I a good person?” Every character has that question. It’s the crux of the show. Every character is up against that. It’s like, how many bad decisions or bad choices make you that person?
Q: What was the show ultimately saying about acting?
A: It’s a real cautionary tale, isn’t it? I wouldn’t watch that show and think: “You know what? I’m going to pack my bags and drive to LA!” In Cousineau’s classes, he gets people to bring their trauma to the forefront. The whole thing becomes this game of competitive grief.
Q: Was Barry a show that believed that people can change?
A: For the most part, no. But for Sally, in the finale, she finally makes an unselfish choice. She chooses this child that she didn’t even want and walks away from Barry. She still needs the reassurance from her child the same way she needed it from Barry. That narcissism and insecurity is still there. However, she’s up there with the students getting real joy out of having made this show. It’s not about fame or huge applause. It’s about having done something joyful with these kids. If she had become incredibly famous, things might have gone a lot worse for her. I don’t think it would have worked out.
Q: Why did Barry have to die?
A: I always felt he was going to die. And I wondered who was going to kill him. I wondered if it was going to be Sally for a while. And if this is a morality tale, then there’s the question of consequences or repercussions. It’s brave storytelling to kill your lead. There’s a fun finality to it. It’s really over.
Q: Redemption never really worked for him. He tried. Became a “nice” guy, went to church. But in the end, he still went back to Los Angeles to kill Gene.
A: All that redemption was on such a superficial level. None of it was going deep. Because ultimately, if he felt threatened, he would make the selfish choice. So it was just more performance.
Q: Was this really a comedy, especially in this final season?
A: It was definitely a comedy when we started. The tone became really expansive. This season, particularly in the latter half, we changed genre almost every episode: thriller, horror, drama. I was surprised that the show could hold that. I laugh out loud, still, watching the show, but “comedy” doesn’t sum it up.
Q: How much say did you have in shaping Sally?
A: I had a lot to say, which I never took for granted, because it’s rare. I’ve always said that with Sally, you don’t have to like her. You just have to know her. Likeable? Unlikeable? That’s a barometer we really only use for women. I wanted her to be as morally bankrupt as the men on the show. I wanted her to remain complex. I asked for that from Season 1. I find it interesting to play characters who are making bad decisions. I’m not interested in playing nice people.
Q: Sally attracted a lot of online hate, which reminded me of the reactions to female characters on other series. Why do people hate these women so much?
A: I wish I had an answer that made any logical sense. I feel like there’s just this undercurrent of cultural misogyny — the sexism involved in how we view those characters is wild to me. Barry was no exception. I was curious how that would go. My hunch was correct that we were met with the same type of misogyny, but that only made me want to double down and go harder.
Q: Did any of it feel bad?
A: Only in the way that every single day as a woman can feel bad. When I was growing up, I was taught that we lived in an equal world, and I believed it. When I went to theatre school, in my year, there were 20 boys to eight women. We were told: “Well, this is a model of the industry. It’s representative of what kind of roles are available to you.” And we all just nodded along like, “Oh, that makes sense.” I have a lot of latent rage around those things. Some of it I was able to channel through Sally’s outbursts, but I felt so frustrated as an actress when I was starting out at what was available. I’d have this litmus test of like, Does she only ask questions? Does she say, “I’m so worried about you, babe”? Does she have a point of view? Does she have a job?
Q: What can you tell me about the character you’ll play in Industry?
A: Petra, she’s the polar opposite of Sally. That was the draw. She’s an incredibly contained woman who is very successful and wickedly smart. While Sally was many things, contained was not one of them. Sally is always searching or floundering. Actually sitting still and taking the higher status is harder for me. So that’s why I’m enjoying it. It’s been a lovely job so far.
Q: How has Barry changed your career?
A: Well, it changed my life. There’s only so long one can survive on a theatre salary. Opposite to Sally, I’m someone who very much enjoys anonymity. The people who watch Barry seem to really love the show. If I’m approached in the street, it’s usually someone very kind who shyly wants to say, “I love the show.” And that’s lovely. Honestly, my life hasn’t changed all that much. Especially in London, nobody cares. I just feel lucky that the material I’ve been able to do has been stuff that I want to do. I haven’t had to compromise. As long as I can sustain that, I think I’ll be happy.
Q: You can just play nice girls from now.
A: Yes, that will be my question: “Is she likeable, though?”
This article originally appeared in The New York Times.
Written by: Alexis Soloski
Photographs by: Lanna Apisukh
©2023 THE NEW YORK TIMES
All seasons of Barry are available now on Neon
OPINION: There's enough for old-school and new-school fans alike.