Who did The Country's host Jamie Mackay speak to in June 2025?
The Country looks back at some of the biggest and best stories of the past 12 months, including readers’ favourites, news events and those yarns that gave us a glimpse into rural lives and livelihoods across the country.
Originally published June 16.
With 31,328 visitors to The Country’s website and 4270 downloads on iHeart, Deputy Prime Minister David Seymour reviewing Dame Jacinda Ardern’s memoir was the most popular show of 2025.
Read the transcript below for Seymour’s review of A Different Kind of Power, which he listened to on the plane back from the Oxford Union Debate.
He also shared his thoughts on the issues of the day, including whether health spending cuts should be on the table.
Jamie Mackay: David Seymour, Deputy Dave, is with us. When did you get back into the country, David?
David Seymour: Oh, just last night.
Jamie Mackay: And you read Jacinda’s book on the way home on the plane. Was that rather than pop a sleeping pill?
David Seymour: Well, I thought it might have the same effect, but I’ve got to say, it is a very easy read, and you have to admire some of her better qualities.
Now, just hear me out.
You know, she does have a nice, kind tone about her, and I think she’s genuine when she says that if we were able to see the world through the eyes of a child and make the world a better place from the perspective of children - and she certainly talks about getting lots of letters from children that help to make policy - then we’d have a better world and I’m I’m kind of susceptible to that argument.
I just think that in order to make the world a better place, you actually need some adults in the room, and the main thing that’s missing is there’s absolutely no self-reflection on any of the results of her policies.
She doesn’t mention fiscal policy or debt or taxes, or deficits once in the whole book.
But it does take about 11 chapters until she starts primary school.
Jamie Mackay: Has she been overly demonised in this country?
David Seymour: Look, I think the reason that she has become so polarising for a lot of people is that she really did promise so much, so much more kindness, but she was prepared in practice to marginalise people if you didn’t want to get vaccinated. They’d you know, turn the sprinklers on you and mock you.
If you had a firearm, you got blamed for a terrorist attack.
If you’re a farmer, you faced an avalanche of regulation suggesting that you’re kind of a bad person, trying to destroy your own land, but, you know, we’ll we’ll somehow help you, be a better person.
And then, of course, if you’re a landlord, then you’re obviously trying to take advantage of everyone that you’re actually providing a home to.
And if you’re an employer, you’re obviously trying to rip off your staff, so we’ll put more rules on you there.
So the kindness and inclusion ended up being very much nastiness and exclusion if you weren’t in the in-crowd, and I think that is why people got so angry.
Listen to the full show below:
Jamie Mackay: How was the Oxford Union debate? I’ve seen snippets of it. Did you have your David Lange moment?
David Seymour: I don’t think I quite managed to match the big man, but I loved it, mainly because of the quality of the discussion.
You know, Oxford Union was formed in about 1800, sorry, 1823, when you weren’t allowed to criticise the church. They said we’re founding this thing for free speech. So I loved doing the debate.
Our team lost, but narrowly. I think we lost about 198 votes to 183. So we were, you know, happy we did reasonably well. We only lost by a few per cent if you work it out.
And I just thought it was great to be able to go and debate freely about, you know, are human rights universal or should we be searching the past for reasons to resent each other along the grounds of our ancestry?
The contrast was the New Zealand media. You know, TVNZ reported that I was defending speaking, because some activists said I shouldn’t be allowed to because I’m a bad person.
And the contrast between a student club founded 200 years ago to defend free speech and the New Zealand media questioning whether, you know, someone who’s elected by their peers to represent them in Parliament should even be allowed to speak is pretty staggering.
But hey, look, it also shows us how we can have a better world in New Zealand by being a bit more respectful of free speech.
Jamie Mackay: You’ve just flown home. You will be acting Prime Minister because our Prime Minister is about to fly off at some stage this week, I’m not sure when, to China on a trade trip. And he will be, literally, David Seymour, walking a diplomatic tightrope, I’d imagine.
David Seymour: Yes, well, it’s one of the challenges for New Zealand is the people who like to buy our produce, and by the way, having just spent a week in Europe, I can tell you, I’ve got an even greater appreciation for the Kiwi farmer.
Our produce is so much better, and my stomach’s sort of starting to feel normal again, having been back for almost a day.
But look, I mean, unfortunately, the people who are our traditional allies are not so keen on buying our produce, and the people who are keen on buying our produce aren’t always the people that we agree with in terms of geopolitics.
That is the tightrope that every New Zealand Prime Minister has had to walk for a wee while now, and we certainly, you know, wish Chris all the best in that mission that he has going from Beijing to NATO in one week.
Jamie Mackay: Now, I was reading online this morning that the Treasury warns Health New Zealand cuts need to double. So the figures hint at cuts of $1.2 billion this year. Health New Zealand needs $600 million in savings. Why on earth, David Seymour, Deputy Prime Minister, a man with influence, are we cutting, are we penny-pinching on health?
David Seymour: Well, we’re not, and let me just put in a bit of context.
In 2019, the health budget was $18 billion. Last year it was $30 billion. This year, I think it’s about 31 and a half.
So we’ve increased the amount of spending on healthcare by about 70% in the last six years.
The question is, where did it all go, and how do we get efficiency?
It didn’t help that there was a pandemic, but that’s been and gone. It didn’t help that the previous government decided to restructure the entire health system in the middle of a pandemic, but that’s in the past now.
What our government has to do is work out how to get value for money out of the extraordinary increase in expenditure we’ve had over the last six years, and you’ll see us just [make] one little change at a time, figuring out how we can more efficiently get stuff done in this country.
Jamie Mackay: Did you miss Fieldays? Did you miss not going to Fieldays?
David Seymour: Yeah, it’s probably the first Fieldays I’ve missed in a decade. I also missed the Grammar/Kings’ First XV game, which was disastrously won by those people in the maroon from down south.
So it’s been a a bad time for my annual engagements, but Andrew Hoggard by all accounts did a really good job, spoke well, and we’re really grateful for the reception that the rest of the Act team along with Mark Cameron and Karen Chhour and some of our other MPs who were there, they really got a lot of love and also a lot of feedback.
So we’re encouraged to keep working for rural New Zealand.
Jamie Mackay: Hey, when do you take over as acting PM? What day does Luxon fly out?
David Seymour: Well, I don’t want to sound too pedantic, but it’s 6:45 a.m. Tomorrow morning.
Jamie Mackay: You’re counting the minutes, are you?
David Seymour: Someone just told me a few minutes ago, so I happen to know.
Jamie Mackay: Well, good on you. Thanks for your time today on The Country, and I’m glad you got home safely. And, talking about your man Andrew Hoggard, he’s coming up a wee bit later in the show on our farmer politician panel. Lots of things are happening at Fieldays to look back on. But David Seymour, thanks for your time.
David Seymour: Fantastic. See you, Jamie.