Matt Minto as Simon and Dean O'Gorman as Ford Lampton, trying to shake off their past, in The Bad Seed.
Charlotte Grimshaw, author of seven critically acclaimed novels, including her latest Mazarine, and two short story collections, talks with Sarah Daniell about seeing her books come to life in a new TV series, a compelling murder mystery, The Bad Seed
How has it been, to hand hand
over your work and submit to another process?
It's been absolutely fascinating. The first thing to say is that whenever I've been asked to write a screenplay that is based on my fiction I've said no to that. Because writing novels and short stories is my skill. So I didn't want to write the screenplay myself and I was happy to regard this as an original interpretation of my work. So that means I was pretty relaxed about how they decided to use the material - what they decided to emphasise and the myriad creative decisions. I received all the screenplays and I went through them all as though they were an original work by someone else - and then I put my oar in. As I tend to do. I went to it like a very severe editor. The screenwriters were in control. They then decided whether they wanted to take on board what I thought or not.
If you weren't happy, you could disassociate yourself from it. Was that ever on your mind?
Absolutely. Every time someone gets hold of your work you are going to be objecting every step of the way. I had enormous creative differences with the screenwriters partly because they are wanting to make a TV show, which is a different medium. They have to tell the story faster and all the demands of television are different. So I was able to be relaxed about the fact they they were doing things with my material that I wouldn't do myself. Dialogue ... I would read the dialogue and say "No no no!" And I would tell [producer] Robin Scholes what I thought. But they made the ultimate decision. I found it compelling to watch.
The characters in Bad Seed are all brittle and flawed. Is there one in particular you sympathise with?
Um ... like, is there one of your children ...
... that is your favourite?
No, I love them all, ha ha. I mean, it's a really hard question but I really do feel as though I do love them all. But there's one character who's been completely changed around - I made Ford the moral centre [in the book] and the scriptwriters changed that around. I had a subtle thing going about the character Ford, which is one area where I've had to be relaxed about what they've done - but no, I think what I would say is I really enjoy the interplay between all the characters. I sort of think that as a writer what you try and do is surprise the reader and the way to do that is make the subleties emerge. So you have a character like Karen, who seems like a two-dimensional, shallow character - but she's much more complicated than that and her husband's attitude towards her becomes much more complicated as he makes various realisations. My empathy is really with all of them.
How much have you drawn on your own life, in Remuera - the parties that are portrayed, the pristine, the wealthy?
It's the war against cliche and stereotype. The interest is what lies beneath. So yes if you have a group of middle-class, affluent people, it's always interesting to look at what are their origins, their secrets. What are they hiding? What do they love? Who do they love? It's not what's on the surface. It's the same with people who are not affluent. It's the same thing - the same flaws, and strengths and subtleties. It's acknowledging the society but wanting to look beyond those external labels and stereotypes. So yes, I have a very wide experience of all kinds of New Zealand society in my life. And so I can kind of cast an eye over all sorts, really.
David, the poor boy-made-good, the shallow but determined political aspirant - I'm yet to get to know the subtleties of David - but did you ever go to a party where former PM John Key was holding court and meet David?
There is a New Zealand journalist who very nicely said to me once, "Your Prime Minister in your book is so much more interesting than John Key.' I mean the thing to say about John Key is that I wanted to write about a type of prime minister - the type that the forces enabled to be Prime Minister and to be wildly popular - he was madly popular - but the character I have drawn is not his character. It may be that he had a certain look that caught my eye but I transferred all this data that I had and it is actually from a different model. A different man. I hope he is vastly more interesting than John Key. Personally I'm a fan of Jacinda, I have to say.
I think I'd much rather be at a party with Jacinda than I would with John Key. What about you?
Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. But I have to say I have been a supporter of Jacinda forever. I was interested about writing about the kind of society where he became popular - that's really what I'm interested in.
And what that says about society at that point?
Yes and it was quite hard, when I wrote The Night Book, the first book, there was a very left-wing journalist who really objected to it because - I don't think he was particularly literary and I think he just assumed I was romanticising this terrible right-wing politician and that I was some kind of National Party fan girl. He really didn't get or understand the exercise. But I had a kind of lofty ambition - like [Honore de] Balzac did with The Human Comedy. So writing about society and the Rustignac character goes into society absolutely determined to succeed and has this ambition ... I was trying to be Balzac - it's kinda hard to convey that to people. Successfully.
There's a line in the show - and I'm not sure if it's in the book as yet - but where it says, we are all pretending to be someone we are not. Has this ever been true for yourself?
First of all, I don't think I wrote that line. But that's fine because they [the characters] are all pretending to be someone they're not. But yes, I think I have. Yes I do. Yeah, I feel like I've had a late realisation that I've often pretended to be something I'm not - or is it more complicated than that? But I would say yes to your question. Do I need to elaborate?
Do you mean as a writer you have been able to pretend you are someone else, or do you mean personally?
I don't mean in terms of my writing, now I think about it. I think personally that I have - it's probably not relevant to the TV and the book but just in answer to that question, I think I had a sort of late mid-life thing where I realised that I didn't really know who I was.
Maybe that is something that continues sporadically throughout our lives?
Yeah, probably, definitely. It's sort of a bit of Mazarine - someone having a bit of an identity crisis. But, yep. I was just answering your question and I just stood on the dog.
The Bad Seed - it reminds me of a phrase "blood will out" - do you agree we can't escape your origins or upbringing?
In the show the brothers are oppressed by the fact their father is this awful character - and can they be good men when they have this awful genetic heritage? And so I think that theme of the fiction, which is being taken from Soon - in The Bad Seed - is I guess genetics are a big influence but there are other factors at play - it's nature and nurture. I don't think your genetics are inescapable in all senses. That is the in tension in the book - Simon is racked by this sense that he's made good but has he really? Has he escaped really?
The books and the TV version, The Bad Seed, are set in Auckland. Is there a city that is wildly evocative - dark - a city with charisma - that is aligned with the kind of characters you like and the themes you like?
I think I actually like writing about Auckland because it's really about the people and all people have a hidden side. In a way, the city is the backdrop, the subtlety and the detail is the inhabitants. So you can find all sorts of ironies and drama in any group of human beings.
But There are cities in the world I have found - like Istanbul and Moscow - I can think of cities that are terribly dramatic - and London - I've written stuff that's based in London because I've lived in London.
Like in Mazarine ...
Yeah - and Buenos Aires - and that was in Mazarine - I really enjoyed writing about Buenos Aires.
You don't romanticise people or places do you?
No, no I really don't. I think I really wrote about my real impressions of Buenos Aires because it's a tough city with a tough history. I think people have an extremely romantic perception of the city and the reality is somewhat different. just as interesting - incredibly interesting but harsh. Fascinatingly harsh.
What television do you like to watch?
I really like good television. All the greats. I think what I like is a TV series that has a really terrific screenplay - like The Sopranos - because it's just the best, I think. And I don't tend to like fantasy. I like well-written, suspenseful, clever TV. I love a good box set.
Are you a binger?
I would respectfully sit down and watch a whole box set but what I don't like is crap TV - I don't sit in front of ... Married At First Sight? Oh God, no. I like really top quality TV or nothing. Apart from that, the news. I don't sit around watching - I dunno - none of that sort of shit. I like things like Borgen and The Killing - the Scandinavian series. House of Cards became quite absurd. I do not like rubbish television.
What next? Would you like to collaborate on the screen with someone else?
I think Mazarine would make a really good film actually. I dunno - Jane Campion asked me once whether I was interested in writing screenplays and I said no - and then people said "Are you mad?" It's not what I'm good at. So I 'spose I would think about it. But just in terms of the books I think Mazarine is very filmic. It's an adventure. A gay road trip.
It covers many territories - internally and geographically.
And you'd go on location. Argentina. Yeah. It would be good. But, in a way just because I write fiction does that really mean I can write TV? I haven't tested if I could be good at it.
One last thing - if you were a word, what would you be?
That's very difficult. At this point should I say something like "evasive".
Is that your last word on the word?
Oh you want me to pick another word? Evasive is quite good though isn't it, because it encompasses that idea that I might be something else but I'm not telling you. The only thing I would love to do is is mention Mazarine. Evasive wants to mention Mazarine. That is my last cryptic word. What about "cryptic"? Cryptic sounds pretentious in a way. Evasive sounds more humble.
The Bad Seed, TVNZ 1, April 14-18, 8.30pm
They allege the Crown ignored Treaty obligations by not engaging with them.