Former MP Andrew Little backs Government decision to explore Aukus pillar 2, distancing himself from Labour position

Former Defence Minister Andrew Little has given warm remarks on the Aukus pact. Photo / RNZ

Former minister Andrew Little, who served as Defence Minister and Minister for the Intelligence Agencies, has weighed into the Aukus debate, backing the current Government’s decision to investigate potential New Zealand involvement.

“The world is very different now from 10 and 20 years ago,” Little said in what could be a critique of former Prime Minister Helen Clark and former National leader Don Brash, who have been leaders of the campaign against the deal.

The Government is currently exploring whether New Zealand can sign-on to the non-nuclear “pillar 2″ of the Aukus pact, which involves sharing and developing high-tech defence technology.

Little’s cautious support puts him slightly at odds with the Labour Party’s current position which is deeply sceptical of any New Zealand involvement in the deal. The party’s Foreign Affairs spokesman David Parker said earlier this month: “Labour remains unconvinced that joining is in New Zealand’s interests”.

In a speech to the Indo-Pacific Security Conference at the University of Canterbury today, Little warned of a deteriorating security situation, citing war in Ukraine and Gaza, and noted that the parties in those conflicts had strong links to powers in the Indo-Pacific. Little refrained from criticising the Labour position by name in the speech and made only one oblique reference to it.

Labour has repeatedly said the pact was designed to “contain” a rising China. Little responded to this saying “there might be some legitimacy to that argument, but if it is used to suggest there is no threat to respond to and that we have no interest in the broader Indo-Pacific, then it’s a meaningless claim and gets us no further in deciding what we, as a country, should do”.

He was particularly hawkish on China, saying that while its economic growth had benefited both China and the countries that trade with it the “aggressive nationalism” promoted by the current Chinese leadership was a problem, including in New Zealand.

“It’s a nationalism through which the Chinese Communist Party sees its diaspora as an extension of the Chinese state abroad, to be harnessed to project Chinese interests.

“That’s what its United Front Work Department does, and it’s now a matter of public record that it is active in New Zealand,” Little said.

The United Front Work Department is an organ of the Chinese Communist Party that seeks to project power abroad, mostly through covert influence activities. Media reports and the work of Canterbury University Professor Anne-Marie Brady have shone a light on its activity here.

He also cited concerns over China’s aggressive and illegal assertion of fishing rights in waters to which it does not have an exclusive claim, China’s cyber-attacks, the alignment between China and Russia over the Ukraine invasion, and the potential for conflict over Taiwan as reasons for concern.

Little said that some of the “undersea technology, artificial intelligence, advanced cyber technology, and hypersonic and counter-hypersonic technology” that is part of Aukus pillar 2 was of interest to New Zealand.

However, he said openly what many New Zealand officials have been saying privately: that the three Aukus pillar 1 partners, the US, UK, and Australia, had not yet worked out what pillar 2 would entail.

Little said that a little over a year ago as Minister of Defence, he discussed Aukus pillar 2 with his three Aukus counterparts (Little used the word “alliance”, which the Aukus partners try to avoid).

Ex-Defence Minister Andrew Little has a hawkish position on China. Photo / Bevan Conley

“There was one thing consistent about their messages then and that is none was sure what being involved in Aukus pillar 2 would entail,” Little said.

“The parties couldn’t say if being part of pillar 2 would require a commitment to a contribution or investment, or whether it would require a commitment of people and intellectual resources, or if it would mean committing to being a customer for products developed through the programme,” he said.

Subsequent to Little and Labour leaving office, noises out of Australia have suggested that pillar 2 would involve countries signing up to discrete development and procurement projects under the banner of pillar 2 rather than signing up to pillar 2 as a single entity.

The three Aukus countries and Japan might come together to develop an AI program for hunting submarines, for example, while the Aukus countries and South Korea might come together to work on a different technology.

Little was critical of the enthusiasm the coalition showed for Aukus when it first took office, saying talk of signing up to pillar 2 to “as quickly as possible” did not help.

However, he said the more recent comments of the Foreign Affairs Minister “seem about right”, confirming that New Zealand had “nothing to respond to at this point on pillar 2″ because currently there is no pillar 2 to consider.

The speech was not a full-throated backing of the deal. While Little said New Zealand must be “realistic about the threats that face us, including the way China conducts itself”, he cautioned New Zealand should be “realistic about our partners, too”.

The United States, while not a formal ally, is a longstanding defence partner. Yet it was challenged by rising extremism, a paralysed Government and a politicised judiciary, Little said.

“There is real doubt about the US’s long-term commitment and reliability. In many places around the world, but here in the Pacific, too,” Little said, noting one of the big questions around Aukus was whether the “commitments made by one administration in Washington will be continued by subsequent administrations”.

Thomas Coughlan is deputy political editor and covers politics from Parliament. He has worked for the Herald since 2021 and has worked in the Press Gallery since 2018.