Winston Peters is handing over the Deputy Prime Minister role to David Seymour on Saturday. Photo / Mark Mitchell
Tomorrow, the symbolic torch of deputy prime ministership will be passed from Winston Peters to David Seymour, fulfilling one of the more curious conditions of the coalition agreement.
Both party leaders entered negotiations after the 2023 election claiming little interest in the baubles of office, but emerged with a unique arrangement to share the role of Christopher Luxon’s deputy, a first in New Zealand.
Luxon says he expects a “seamless transition” but many have their eyes on 2026 and what the handover might mean as the three parties seek re-election.
So how does Peters think he’s fared in the role, does Seymour think he can work well with Luxon, what seating changes happen in the House and who is best-positioned to launch into campaign mode?
The Herald sat down with the pair to find out.
Seated in his seventh-floor office, Winston Peters’ first comment about his time as Deputy Prime Minister is to make none at all.
“Well, one can make a lot of comments, but it’s not helpful to make any comment,” Peters says bluntly.
“I’ve got numerous reflections, but I’m keeping them to myself in the interest of the continuation of a harmonious coalition Government all the way to the next election, which I signed up my party to.”
Peters is not unfamiliar with the role of deputy. His 18 months under Luxon is his third spell as Deputy PM, having held it under Labour’s Dame Jacinda Ardern and National’s Jim Bolger and Dame Jenny Shipley.
Asked to define the job, Peters explains it’s simply to fill in when the Prime Minister is either out of Wellington or out of the country.
“Now, there are others who might give it a much elevated and heightened description, but I’m not one of those people.”
He notes there have been “very talented” deputies in the past, while some have been “hopeless”. National’s Sir Brian Talboys and Labour’s Sir Michael Cullen, Peters respects. He refrains from naming the hopeless ones.
Peters refuses to judge his own success in the job: “I’m not going to do a Tory Whanau.”
But he identifies the key to a successful relationship as the “critical staff” links between offices that can mean issues are dealt with before they reach the politicians.
Peters credits former Labour PM Helen Clark, with whom he worked in coalition, as “excellent” in this regard.
“She had Heather Simpson who got it in one; the moment you expressed a concern, [it] didn’t take five months of discussions, it took about five seconds of understanding where we came from and what might be done about it.
“Now, that success is not easy to repeat and it does take people to have experience.”
Has he managed to achieve that same connection with Luxon’s office?
“We’ve continually tried to. It’s always a work in progress.
“[Luxon] has got some seriously good qualities, like one of them is enthusiasm. I think he’d be the first to recognise that he’s rapidly learning on the job, it takes some time to learn that job.”
One of his main tasks is to stand in for Luxon in the House for Question Time on Thursdays, when the Prime Minister is often elsewhere in the country.
Peters says it’s one of the few duties that hinder his movements as New Zealand First leader, as well as bringing communication challenges.
“There is some confusion that when people think that as a party leader, that you’re talking for the Government.
“Well you’re not, you’re talking for your party and both the politicians and the media should make that distinction, but of course, if you say something that is not in accord with the other parties in the coalition, they immediately talk about a conflict.”
The role also comes with some status in the House, namely occupying the seat on Luxon’s left.
Questions had been floated about whether the handover would change the current seating arrangements, which have NZ First on National’s left and Act’s MPs on its right, close to Te Pāti Māori and the other Opposition parties.
It’s understood seating was discussed in the final stages of coalition talks between National and NZ First. There is some debate over what was agreed, but NZ First sought assurance its MPs would sit in the same section the party occupied when it was last in government.
However, the Herald understands the two parties have agreed to switch, with Seymour relocating to Peters’ seat next to Luxon.
Peters says he’s not fussed: “It’s not where you’re sitting, it’s what you say from where you’re sitting that matters.”
The change will bring Peters and his vocal MP Shane Jones much closer to Te Pāti Māori and the Greens, two parties that often lock horns with NZ First.
There has been much speculation about the political calculus of holding the deputy role in the first half of the term versus the second, with some commentators musing on whether it gives Peters greater freedom in the lead-up to the election.
Peters appears to agree: “My experience tells me there’s an enormous advantage, but I’m not telling you why.”
If Seymour is expecting a handover gift, he needn’t worry. “I don’t go for that ceremonial rubbish,” Peters says.
Any helpful tips he’d offer his coalition partner?
“I’m not in the business of giving people advice.”
Auckland will be the locale for Seymour’s ascension to Deputy Prime Minister, with the formal proceedings carried out by Governor-General Dame Cindy Kiro.
It’s understood Luxon could be in attendance. Peters is not expected to accompany them as he’ll be travelling back to New Zealand from India.
On Sunday, Seymour will speak at a brunch event in Auckland for Act supporters, where he will celebrate what he admits was “unthinkable” even five years ago.
“There [are] people who say, ‘Well, can Act really be at the centre of government and do a good job?’
“I think this is a proof point for that so I suspect it may reassure some people who are actual or potential Act supporters.”
While he describes the role as a “great honour”, Seymour is quick to assure his voters and opponents little will change.
“I want to give reassurance to my numerous enemies that this does not actually give me any great superpowers, it just means that, every now and then, I’ll be stepping in for Chris and answering a few questions in Parliament.
“The main losers out of this are probably the Labour Party who’ll have to ask those questions.”
As Peters may have been hinting at, it will impact Seymour’s Act Party campaigning on Thursdays, when he’ll be expected to be in the House. Seymour says he’ll look to shift party-related activities to Wednesday afternoons and Thursday mornings.
The change to the House’s seating arrangement aligns with Act’s expectations, given the handover of the deputy title.
However, given Act has three more MPs than NZ First, it did present a scenario that involved National shifting across and leaving Luxon surrounded by Act MPs.
It’s understood the parties have compromised to split off a couple of Act’s MPs and seat them on the other side of National.
Unlike Peters, Seymour is happy to give his assessment of his deputy predecessor.
“The thing about Winston is he can rise to any occasion, and I think he’s done that as Deputy Prime Minister and then as Chris [Luxon] says, sometimes you get Winston being Winston.”
Would Luxon say the same about him?
“Well, of course, David being David is a slightly less colourful character.”
Seymour and Luxon have butted heads over the last 18 months, most notably over the Treaty Principles Bill but also recently over Act’s position on the proposed social media ban.
“Oh look, we’ve already worked through more issues than a daily magazine,” Seymour concedes.
“I think our working relationship is very good, we come from quite different places and yet, our Government has stayed together and keeps making quite considerable progress.
“The people who vote for a party like Act still deserve the same representation; the idea that to represent them is undercutting someone else is very disrespectful to those voters.”
As expected, Seymour dismisses any suggestion having the deputy job could disadvantage him going into the election.
“If it was true that taking on ministerial roles disadvantaged you, no government would ever be re-elected but if you do your ministerial jobs well, that can be good for you politically.”
Adam Pearse is the Deputy Political Editor and part of the NZ Herald’s Press Gallery team based at Parliament in Wellington. He has worked for NZME since 2018, reporting for the Northern Advocate in Whangārei and the Herald in Auckland.
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