Ironically, Andrew Barnes, who pioneered the four-day working week, with his company Perpetual Guardian, no longer has much time for long weekends himself.
The founder of estate planning specialist Perpetual Guardian, which looks after more than $4 billion worth of assets, Barnes is more famous for introducing the four-day week for his staff in 2018.
The idea is that staff can choose a three-day weekend if they can organise themselves to get their work done. The research shows it can be down without dropping productivity for the business.
The concept has taken off around the world.
“That has actually ruined my four-day week,” Barnes tells the Money Talks podcast.
“We’ve got pilot programmes running in about 20 countries worldwide. We’re also involved in things like Bernie Sanders’ legislation before the [US] Senate, [US Congressman] Mark Takano’s bill before Congress. So, this has now moved from companies to countries actually looking to implement the four-day week. And we’re advising about six countries now on that.”
On Money Talks, guests are often asked what policy they’d introduce if they could be Prime Minister for the day.
Surprisingly, Barnes says he wouldn’t introduce a four-day week by law.
“Would I legislate a four-day week? No, because at the end of the day, this is not about: I’m going to give you this as of right,” he says.
“There is this dynamic balance that we argue for - the 100-80-100 rule. 100 per cent pay, 80 per cent time, 100 per cent productivity. If it becomes a right without the obligation, then something will suffer.”
It could be productivity that suffers, it could be profitability, it could be customer service, he warns.
“That is what pays the taxes, that is what it pays the salaries. So we’ve got to make sure that’s maintained,” he says.
“But would I change the legislation to enable us to do it easily? Yes, I would. So the Holidays Act needs changes and the Employment Relations Act needs changes to facilitate it.
“The big issues New Zealanders face are our kids being brought up in care because we haven’t got the time to raise them. We have educational issues because we haven’t got the time to spend with our kids, to read. We have obesity because we don’t have time to cook effectively. We’ve got the threats of things like AI coming in. Well, we’re going to have to re-educate our people.
“So creating more time, whilst it doesn’t solve those problems, it creates the opportunity for them to be solved. So I would encourage governments to try it.”
Barnes cites research which suggests people are only truly productive for three hours a day.
“Everybody argues about that. But ultimately, there is a body of research that says we waste a lot of time when we’re at work. I’m saying, if I can convert that to productive time, I can give the benefit of more time off.”
Barnes grew up in Lancashire, in England’s north, and had a remarkable and varied career before moving to New Zealand in 2012.
He was trained in archaeology before joining the Royal Navy and was planning to become a spy - he applied for MI6 - before being sidetracked by what turned out to be a highly successful career in banking.
His parents were teachers and his passion was archaeology.
“I was always interested in history and when I was 16 I started to work for the Central Lancashire Archeological Research unit,” he says.
“Most of that was unpaid, but a bit was paid. That was my passion, but actually, if you want to find the most poorly paid workforce anywhere in the world it’s on an archaeological dig.
“So I decided that archaeology was for talented amateurs and went into the Navy.”
Leaving shortly before the Falklands War began in 1982, Barnes was going through the recruitment process for MI6 when he took what was supposed to be a short-term job in banking.
“All my mates had gone into banking, so I thought I would go into banking as a temporary measure while I was waiting for my final [MI6] interview,” he says.
“And I then gave myself a good talking to at the ripe old age of 22 and said: Andrew, you’ve got to stop chasing rainbows and settle down a sensible job, which had been drummed into me by my parents.”
Barnes was very good at it.
He pulled off some big deals for his employers and was eventually sent to Australia to work for Macquarie. But he was never satisfied and cites a couple of reasons for going out on his own as an entrepreneur.
“I hated the person I’d become. I think finance is a very brutal career,” he says. “I always say part of the genesis of the four-day week relates to the fact that I had two people with nervous breakdowns in front of me by the time I was 25.”
The other reason was that he realised he was making a lot of money - just not for himself.
“I used to run the banking division for Macquarie, and I came across a company called realestate.com.au,” he recalls.
“I bought, for the bank, a controlling interest for $900,000. We floated it 13 weeks later for $36 million, and then it’s gone on and I think it’s now worth, $12 billion. I think it is still the most successful FinTech thing that’s ever come out of Australia. ... So it could have been Bill Gates and then me. But instead, I did the deal for somebody else.”
Successfully creating personal wealth is often misunderstood by people who aspire to get rich, Barnes says.
“I think it comes down to an appreciation of risk. I didn’t make money, other than a salary, until I was prepared to step off into the void,” he says.
“Risk, reward is the issue. The more risk that you take, arguably, the more reward that you can get. But for a lot of people, that is very difficult and they don’t want to take the risk. They’re quite happy to take a salary, take a wage. And after all, most people just want to have a decent standard of living, bring up the kids, the way they want to and you know, spend time with families. They’re not actually that interested in taking the risk.
“I think this is one of the challenges that we face, that there is a natural assumption that wealth comes without risk. And actually, that’s not true.”
Some people do inherit wealth, he acknowledges. But not as many as we might think, he says.
These days Barnes has stepped back from running Perpetual Guardian and spends a lot of his time doing charity work - Perpetual owns and runs the Givealittle website, which he still loves being involved with.
He is on the board of the King’s Trust Aotearoa, which provides a connection back to the UK. He also has a legal tech business in the UK and a wine business on Waiheke Island.
But for now, his biggest passion remains promoting the four-day week. It’s an idea that has hit the zeitgeist around the world, he says.
“You don’t have many chances to change the world. I can’t think of a better legacy than, maybe, to find a way that we can all work less and do the things that we love, want to do.
“If we can, if that’s my legacy, frankly, is better than anything else I’ve ever done.”
Listen to the full episode to hear more from
Money Talks is a podcast run by the NZ Herald. It isn’t about personal finance and isn’t about economics - it’s just well-known New Zealanders talking about money and sharing some stories about the impact it’s had on their lives and how it has shaped them.
The series is hosted by Liam Dann, business editor-at-large for the Herald. He is a senior writer and columnist, and also presents and produces videos and podcasts. He joined the Herald in 2003.
Money Talks is available on iHeartRadio, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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