Who did The Country's host Jamie Mackay speak to in August 2025?
The Country looks back at some of the biggest and best stories of the past 12 months, including readers’ favourites, news events and those yarns that gave us a glimpse into rural lives and livelihoods across the country.
Originally published August 14.
With 17,019 visitors to The Country’s website and 3147 downloads on iHeart, Opposition leader Chris Hipkins’ discussion with Jamie Mackay on whether Labour would consider a capital gains tax for farmers was the second most popular show of 2025.
Read the transcript below for Hipkins’ thoughts on capital gains, his reasoning for not turning up to the Royal Commission of Inquiry for Covid-19, and why it was his second Newstalk ZB interview of the day.
Jamie Mackay: Apologies, firstly, for the second appearance of this man on Newstalk ZB today, not because we don’t want to talk to him, but because we have a food chain. And on Newstalk ZB, Mike Hosking is at the top of it. This interview, by the way, was scheduled about two or three weeks ago with Labour leader Chris Hipkins. But Chris, you decided for the second time this year to go on with Hosking. You took a bit of a mauling over the Covid inquiry. Why do you bother?
Chris Hipkins: Oh, well, you know, look, Mike Hosking seems to have had me blacklisted since the election, so, you know, great to be back on his show again. And, in fairness to Mike, he asks tough questions, and that’s his job.
Jamie Mackay: He certainly does, but wouldn’t you be better to stick with RNZ, Red Radio? You’re going to get an easier run there, and how many of Hosking’s listeners would ever vote for you?
Chris Hipkins: Well, I mean, look, I think it’s ironic, isn’t it, that now we’ve got Newstalk ZB complaining about me going on the show, and Mike Hosking this morning was saying that I wasn’t publicly accountable enough, so, you know, you can’t win.
Jamie Mackay: I want to talk to you today about capital gains and wealth tax and how that affects farming. But just on the Covid inquiry, you kind of said you didn’t want to appear at the second public inquiry, the Royal Commission, because it risks subjecting you to a torrent of abuse, which you got anyhow this morning on Newstalk ZB. Why not just simply front up for the optics of nothing else, tick the box, take it on the chin and get out of there?
Chris Hipkins: Well, I mean, I think the thing is [that] this is being misrepresented.
You know, we have actually been interviewed by the Royal Commission. I’ve been interviewed by the first Royal Commission and the second Royal Commission, and I’ve given them over 20 pages of written question answers. And at the end of that, they basically said, look, you’ve answered all of the questions that we have.
I said to them, if they’ve got follow-up questions, I’m more than happy to answer them.
So, the suggestion that we’re not appearing before the Royal Commission is nonsense.
The Royal Commission, I indicated some concern to them through my representatives about the way the public hearings were going to go, as did other former ministers.
And they have ultimately decided that they’re not going to do that, and they’re not going to do further public hearings.
So, you know, I think it’s a bit more complicated, a bit more complex than the way it’s been represented.
Jamie Mackay: Yeah, but you can see the optics on this. They look terrible for you. Judith Collins called you gutless and hypocritical. Winston Peters, let me see what he said, ‘The podium of truth has now become the podium of evasion’. See, if I were you, and I’m not you, half the country - or more than half the country - thought you got it right up till the 2020 election. Why don’t you just front up to the inquiry and say, look, there was no manual, there was no blueprint for this. We did our best, we got it right, and then we cocked it up.
Chris Hipkins: Well, I mean, of course, you know, Winston Peters is welcome to appear before the Royal Commission himself - he was a minister involved in the decision-making.
Although I do note that the terms of reference that his government, the current government, set for the Royal Commission specifically excludes their ability to question Winston Peters over the decisions that he was involved in. And so, people can draw their own conclusions from that.
Jamie Mackay: Do you think it’s fair that Jacinda and Grant Robertson are running for the hills? I mean, they’re not in public office now, but you and Ayesha Verrall still are.
Chris Hipkins: Well, and you know, I answer questions every day, Jamie. I’m here answering questions from you. I was on Mike Hosking’s show this morning answering questions from him.
If anyone’s got questions about Covid-19 they want me to answer publicly, they get the opportunity to ask me every day.
Jamie Mackay: Well, the Covid Royal Commission would love to ask you some questions. Let’s move on to a capital gains or wealth tax. Now, I discussed this with the Prime Minister yesterday. You are as aware as I am that a capital gains tax would bring in very little initially. So, the end game for you here has to be a wealth tax.
Chris Hipkins: Look, we haven’t set out our policy.
I think it’s clear that capital gains, wealth tax, broadening the tax base is something that the Labour Party is talking about at the moment.
One of the things that we’re working through, though, is all the ins and outs of that, all of the potential impacts that that might have on different groups that could be affected, to make sure that we design a policy that’s robust and that actually is not going to have adverse consequences.
Listen to the full show below:
Jamie Mackay: Why did you make a captain’s call when you took over from Jacinda not to run with a capital gains tax? What’s changed your mind?
Chris Hipkins: I mean, ultimately, I continued the existing Labour Party position.
I didn’t think we were in a position to be able to adopt a significant new policy like that that close to the election.
But we lost the election ultimately, and I think when you lose the election, you do have to listen to the electorate.
The electorate said they were looking for something different from us. And so now we’re working through a policy.
Jamie Mackay: Are you in danger of losing the next election? Is it electoral suicide to go to the people with a capital gains tax? Or are you going to exempt the family homes and only kind of go for the rich and the farmers?
Chris Hipkins: Well, look, there’s a lot of stuff that we have to work through if we were going to announce a capital gains tax.
And so, we’re working through all the ins and outs of the different options at the moment.
Jamie Mackay: Okay, how might it work from a farming point of view? Hypothetically. Come on, give me something.
Chris Hipkins: It’s a fair question, and one of the things that we’ve been talking a lot to farmers about, and particularly the new generation of farmers coming through, is that the current generation of farmers have had significant capital gains, and the next generation of farmers are looking at a profile that’s very, very different to that.
So, if you’re, say, buying your family farm off your parents, you’re not going to get the same capital gains that they got, and so that is something that we have to factor in.
It’s much harder to buy a farm now than it was 40 or 50 years ago, and so, I’m very, very aware of those issues for younger farmers, for the next generation of farmers, and I don’t want to make those problems worse. And so, you know, that is one of the things that we’re...
Jamie Mackay: Well, you’re going to make it a hell of a lot worse with a capital gains tax.
Chris Hipkins: Well, you’re speculating, Jamie.
Jamie Mackay: No, I’m not.
Chris Hipkins: And we haven’t announced a policy yet.
Jamie Mackay: We know you’re going to go to the election with this.
Chris Hipkins: What I’ve just said to you is that the issues around the next generation of farmers are very much one of the things that we’re thinking about and the design of any tax policy that we take to the election.
Jamie Mackay: Just finally, when it comes to a capital gains or wealth tax, are you worried that there’ll be a run on the bank in terms of the wealthier people in this country, the wealth creators, the ones who take the risks, the ones who have a business, the ones who employ people?
Chris Hipkins: Well, I mean, I’ve said before, and I’ve said it very clearly at the beginning of the year, one of the things that I want to see us do as a country is invest more in productive businesses, and have less of a focus on buying and selling residential property on the speculative market.
And so, any tax design that we come up with will have that front and centre.
Jamie Mackay: Chris Hipkins on the country. Second time today up to the batter’s box on Newstalk ZB.