Prime Minister Christopher Luxon says the Greens are in La La Land on law and order following Tamatha Paul's comments on beat police.
Green MP Tamatha Paul criticised police beat patrols, saying they make people feel less safe.
Police Minister Mark Mitchell called her comments ‘nonsense’, citing a 5.5% decrease in violent crime in Wellington Central.
Former Green MP Golriz Ghahraman, who was convicted last of shoplifting, has come out in defence of Paul’s policing comments.
Green MP Tamatha Paul says she doesn’t know the full information behind her claim that someone was in prison for shoplifting $12 worth of items.
It appears she doesn’t know if her claim is true, saying on Thursday that “if what the person has told me was true, that’s definitely unjust”.
She’s been making that claim as an example of people being in prison because “they can’t feed themselves”, but the Wellington Central MP was unable to elaborate when pressed for more information by the Herald today.
Paul initially said she couldn’t “share their personal details with you”.
Asked if the person was facing any other charges, the MP said: “When I go into prisons, I get to have lots of conversations with people in there and I heard a bunch of stories.
“I don’t sit down and interrogate them. I just listen to their stories as I’m a guest in their space.”
Green MP Tamatha Paul couldn't explain the claims. Photo / Mark Mitchell
The Herald put it to Paul that the person may have had more convictions as it would appear unlikely someone would be imprisoned for only shoplifting $12 worth of items.
“Well, I mean, how would I know? I just have these interactions. That was one of 10 prisons that I have been in the last year where I have lots of tragic conversations about people who are in prison because of the poverty they experienced.”
She said that, “if what the person had told me was true, that’s definitely unjust”.
“Who should be in prison for shoplifting $12 worth of things because they can’t feed themselves and that is the reality of prisons. There are a lot of people in there because they are poor.”
The Herald said the issue was that she was sharing the information when she didn’t know if the person was in prison for stealing $12 worth of goods or not.
“I guess I just take people’s word for it when they come and talk to me as a Member of Parliament.”
Paul has made the comment about someone being imprisoned for stealing $12 worth of items several times, including on Newstalk ZB on Wednesday morning.
She said: “I met a woman who was in prison for shoplifting $12 worth of items. She was trying to feed herself. I’ve met people who are in prison simply because they do not have a bail address, because they are homeless. That is the situation on the ground and I’ve been in there and I have spoken to them.”
The Crimes Act says someone can be imprisoned for a term not exceeding three months if the value of the property stolen does not exceed $500.
Police and Corrections Minister Mark Mitchell said someone would “absolutely not” be imprisoned for stealing $12 worth of goods. They’d have to have committed serious violent crime or be a recidivist offender, he said.
“You would not get sent to jail for stealing an item of $12. That is complete nonsense,” Mitchell said.
The minister said if he made such a comment, “you guys [the media] would be on me in two seconds flat holding me to account, as you should”.
Former Greens MP and justice spokeswoman Golriz Ghahraman, who was last year convicted for shoplifting, posted on Instagram defending Paul’s broader comments about policing.
Ghahraman shared to her roughly 14,600 followers a quote of Paul’s about not being “surprised that people are upset that a young brown woman is being critical of an institution that has let her and her communities down for a very long time”.
Ghahraman added: “@tamathapaul spoke from both the data and lived experience - the evidence of works and what has for way too long been sold to us as effective policing while making communities literally less safe”.
The former MP, who resigned last year amid allegations of shoplifting, said “oversimplified expensive failed policies win because they make politicians look tough on crime - she showed courage and expertise”.
“The response from establishment voices is just jeery drunk uncle talkback hate. We deserve better policies and better politicians (and you know, way less gross policing).”
The Instagram story posted by Ghahraman was in turn shared by Paul publicly.
There have also been questions about Paul saying the Salvation Army and DCM (Downtown Community Ministry) told her police were waiting for homeless people to leave their spots before throwing out their property.
As the Herald revealed earlier on Thursday, the Salvation Army initially said it was unclear who in an official capacity told Paul what she had claimed, but later said it was aware of a support worker who had spoken to the Green MP last year about police engagement with homeless people’s property.
The worker had told Paul “there were a considerable amount of supermarket trolleys being used by the homeless to store their stuff”.
“Police returned the trolleys to the supermarket and a few of the homeless people’s possessions got caught up in the returns. This was raised with the police at a regular meeting our support workers have with them.”
The DCM (Downtown Community Ministry) said it had “not made a formal complaint” to Paul about beat patrols discarding homeless people’s belongings and it had a “constructive and respectful” relationship with police.
Paul said today she had spoken with the Salvation Army on Wednesday night and believed they were on the same page.
“As a local MP, I meet with different organisations that work on the ground and this was a thing that was brought up by two community organisations with me,” she said.
“Sometimes when people write to me, they will be raising a particular issue. At this time, I was just spending time with Salvation Army and DCM doing an outreach walk, talking to the people who are homeless on our streets and understanding what the issues are and working with the people on the frontline.”
In response to the social groups’ comments, Mitchell said, “sometimes [the Greens] get half the truth and they just fill it in and add what they want to to get the narrative they want to give to our media”.
Paul has made several comments recently about the judicial and policing system that have raised eyebrows.
The Green MP early in March told the Heraldshe expressed “regret” after incorrectly claiming on TikTok that the “vast majority” of people in prison were there for non-violent reasons.
She said “all they do” is wait for homeless people to leave their spot before throwing their property “in the bin”.
“Wellington people do not want to see police officers everywhere, and, for a lot of people, it makes them feel less safe. It’s that constant visual presence that tells you that you might not be safe there, if there’s heaps of cops,” Paul said.
Paul said she’s heard “nothing but complaints” about the beat patrols and questioned if the resource could be deployed better elsewhere.
She also said it was “completely possible” to “set up institutions that can overtake lots of functions of the police”. For example, NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi could take over road policing, or mental health teams could respond to specific callouts.
When on Newstalk ZB on Wednesday morning, she highlighted her desire for services focused on preventing people getting into crime in the first place.
She said she had conversations with people in Wellington “who are concerned that beat police officers are taken away from core things that they should be responding to, like domestic violence callouts, sexual violence callouts and trading that off for a more visible presence”.
Jamie Ensor is a political reporter in the NZ Herald Press Gallery team based at Parliament. He was previously a TV reporter and digital producer in the Newshub Press Gallery office.
